What a Difference of Opinion

[abbey1227]

George Lakoff
Contributor
Emeritus Professor of Cognitive Science and Linguistics, University of California at Berkeley
www.huffpost.com/entry/what-conservatives-really_b_825504
What Conservatives Really Want
02/19/2011 10:37 am ET Updated May 25, 2011

—Dedicated to the peaceful protestors in Wisconsin, February 19, 2011.

The central issue in our political life is not being discussed. At stake is the moral basis of American democracy.

The individual issues are all too real: assaults on unions, public employees, women’s rights, immigrants, the environment, health care, voting rights, food safety, pensions, prenatal care, science, public broadcasting, and on and on.

Budget deficits are a ruse, as we’ve seen in Wisconsin, where the governor turned a surplus into a deficit by providing corporate tax breaks, and then used the deficit as a ploy to break the unions, not just in Wisconsin, but seeking to be the first domino in a nationwide conservative movement.

Deficits can be addressed by raising revenue, plugging tax loopholes, putting people to work, and developing the economy long-term in all the ways the president has discussed. But deficits are not what really matters to conservatives.

Conservatives really want to change the basis of American life, to make America run according to the conservative moral worldview in all areas of life.

In the 2008 campaign, candidate Obama accurately described the basis of American democracy: Empathy — citizens caring for each other, both social and personal responsibility — acting on that care, and an ethic of excellence. From these, our freedoms and our way of life follow, as does the role of government: to protect and empower everyone equally. Protection includes safety, health, the environment, pensions and empowerment starts with education and infrastructure. No one can be free without these, and without a commitment to care and act on that care by one’s fellow citizens.

The conservative worldview rejects all of that.

Conservatives believe in individual responsibility alone, not social responsibility. They don’t think government should help its citizens. That is, they don’t think citizens should help each other. The part of government they want to cut is not the military (we have 174 bases around the world), not government subsidies to corporations, not the aspect of government that fits their worldview. They want to cut the part that helps people. Why? Because that violates individual responsibility.

But where does that view of individual responsibility alone come from?

The way to understand the conservative moral system is to consider a strict father family. The father is The Decider, the ultimate moral authority in the family. His authority must not be challenged. His job is to protect the family, to support the family (by winning competitions in the marketplace), and to teach his kids right from wrong by disciplining them physically when they do wrong. The use of force is necessary and required. Only then will children develop the internal discipline to become moral beings. And only with such discipline will they be able to prosper. And what of people who are not prosperous? They don’t have discipline, and without discipline they cannot be moral, so they deserve their poverty. The good people are hence the prosperous people. Helping others takes away their discipline, and hence makes them both unable to prosper on their own and function morally.

The market itself is seen in this way. The slogan, “Let the market decide” assumes the market itself is The Decider. The market is seen as both natural (since it is assumed that people naturally seek their self-interest) and moral (if everyone seeks their own profit, the profit of all will be maximized by the invisible hand). As the ultimate moral authority, there should be no power higher than the market that might go against market values. Thus the government can spend money to protect the market and promote market values, but should not rule over it either through (1) regulation, (2) taxation, (3) unions and worker rights, (4) environmental protection or food safety laws, and (5) tort cases. Moreover, government should not do public service. The market has service industries for that. Thus, it would be wrong for the government to provide health care, education, public broadcasting, public parks, and so on. The very idea of these things is at odds with the conservative moral system. No one should be paying for anyone else. It is individual responsibility in all arenas. Taxation is thus seen as taking money away from those who have earned it and giving it to people who don’t deserve it. Taxation cannot be seen as providing the necessities of life, a civilized society, and as necessary for business to prosper.

In conservative family life, the strict father rules. Fathers and husbands should have control over reproduction; hence, parental and spousal notification laws and opposition to abortion. In conservative religion, God is seen as the strict father, the Lord, who rewards and punishes according to individual responsibility in following his Biblical word.

Above all, the authority of conservatism itself must be maintained. The country should be ruled by conservative values, and progressive values are seen as evil. Science should not have authority over the market, and so the science of global warming and evolution must be denied. Facts that are inconsistent with the authority of conservatism must be ignored or denied or explained away. To protect and extend conservative values themselves, the devil’s own means can be used again conservatism’s immoral enemies, whether lies, intimidation, torture, or even death, say, for women’s doctors.
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Freedom is defined as being your own strict father — with individual not social responsibility, and without any government authority telling you what you can and cannot do. To defend that freedom as an individual, you will of course need a gun.

This is the America that conservatives really want. Budget deficits are convenient ruses for destroying American democracy and replacing it with conservative rule in all areas of life.

What is saddest of all is to see Democrats helping them.

Democrats help radical conservatives by accepting the deficit frame and arguing about what to cut. Even arguing against specific “cuts” is working within the conservative frame. What is the alternative? Pointing out what conservatives really want. Point out that there is plenty of money in America, and in Wisconsin. It is at the top. The disparity in financial assets is un-American — the top one percent has more financial assets than the bottom 95 percent. Middle class wages have been flat for 30 years, while the wealth has floated to the top. This fits the conservative way of life, but not the American way of life.

Democrats help conservatives by not shouting out loud over and over that it was conservative values that caused the global economic collapse: lack of regulation and a greed-is-good ethic.

Democrats also help conservatives by what a friend has called Democratic Communication Disorder. Republican conservatives have constructed a vast and effective communication system, with think tanks, framing experts, training institutes, a system of trained speakers, vast holdings of media, and booking agents. Eighty percent of the talking heads on TV are conservatives. Talk matters because language heard over and over changes brains. Democrats have not built the communication system they need, and many are relatively clueless about how to frame their deepest values and complex truths.

And Democrats help conservatives when they function as policy wonks — talking policy without communicating the moral values behind the policies. They help conservatives when they neglect to remind us that pensions are deferred payments for work done. “Benefits” are pay for work, not a handout. Pensions and benefits are arranged by contract. If there is not enough money for them, it is because the contracted funds have been taken by conservative officials and given to wealthy people and corporations instead of to the people who have earned them.

Democrats help conservatives when they use conservative words like “entitlements” instead of “earnings” and speak of government as providing “services” instead of “necessities.”

Is there hope?

I see it in Wisconsin, where tens of thousands citizens see through the conservative frames and are willing to flood the streets of their capital to stand up for their rights. They understand that democracy is about citizens uniting to take care of each other, about social responsibility as well as individual responsibility, and about work — not just for your own profit, but to help create a civilized society. They appreciate their teachers, nurses, firemen, police, and other public servants. They are flooding the streets to demand real democracy — the democracy of caring, of social responsibility, and of excellence, where prosperity is to be shared by those who work and those who serve.



George Lakoff is the author of The Political Mind. His website is GeorgeLakoff.com.

townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2015/03/10/20-things-conservatives-want-for-americans-n1968181

1) A country where everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed, but isn’t dragged down by an insistence on equal results.

2) A safe neighborhood where you can let your kids go out and play in the front yard without having to worry about them being shot, kidnapped or coerced by gang members.

3) A country as free as possible of illegal aliens who commit crimes, use taxpayer services without paying, take jobs that should go to citizens and drive down wages for Americans.

4) An environment with clean air, clean water and clean soil.

5) The right to worship the God you believe in as you please, without interference from the state, as long as you don’t hurt anyone else.

6) An environment where Americans can reap rewards as large as the market is willing to pay for their particular talents, work ethic or unique skills.

7) The dignity of supporting yourself with a job, free of dependence on the government.

8) A government that will stay out of your way and allow you to reach your full potential free of interference.
CARTOONS | Michael Ramirez
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9) The freedom to live as you please and do as you please with your property without interference from the government.

10) The ability of parents to be able to send their children to a school, public or private, that best fits their needs.

11) The protection of the world’s foremost military and a government that is willing to use it to insure the safety of American citizens.

12) Medicare and Social Security programs that are financially solvent long-term so they can continue to benefit retirees.

13) The freedom for people to speak their minds without being censored by the government.

14) A decent culture so that children have a chance to grow up without being morally corrupted.

15) A responsible government that keeps order in the streets, protects Americans from crimes, and enforces basic regulations to keep people from being taken advantage of by crooks or unscrupulous businesses.

16) The ability for women to achieve their fullest potential, whether that’s by being a corporate CEO, opening their own business or staying at home as a full time mom.

17) A country where people are judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.

18) Low taxes, so that Americans get to keep more of their hard earned money instead of sending it to the government.

19) A country where everyone from the President of the United to States to the humblest citizen has to obey the same laws or face the same potential penalties for breaking those laws.

20) A fiscally responsible government that takes great care to wisely spend the tax dollars it collects.

[Prometheus]

Is that list of 20 the same as yours, Abs?

[abbey1227]

May 13, 2021 4:01:02 GMT Prometheus said:

Is that list of 20 the same as yours, Abs?

Like the Libertarians, I can agree with much of it

[Prometheus]

May 13, 2021 13:01:41 GMT abbey1227 said:

May 13, 2021 4:01:02 GMT Prometheus said:

Is that list of 20 the same as yours, Abs?

Like the Libertarians, I can agree with much of it

Much but not all?

Give me your list.

[abbey1227]

May 14, 2021 3:45:00 GMT Prometheus said:

May 13, 2021 13:01:41 GMT abbey1227 said:

Like the Libertarians, I can agree with much of it

Much but not all?

Give me your list.

I'm perfectly fine with the first 8.

9 and 10 seem to leaning towards requiring just a bit of regulation/agreed upon rules, no?

11- Unlike all the current welfare......... I do feel the Military is an absolute responsibility of the Govt.........but to the extent they're spending? and using it all over the world? I totally disagree with that.

12) Medicare and SS was the cause of a lot of this dependency thinking.......and the olde folks have become spoiled on it to the extent that they're willing to screw over their own kids and grandkids. Ain't it great?

13) Freedom of speech? I don't think it goes nearly far enough anymore. Comics being shamed? Acceptable words only? F dat nonsense. And the Govt now has private corporations doing their bidding as they're in bed together to achieve their agendas.

14) is too vague.........what is moral? I do think we're an over-sexualized country and have been groomed to be nothing but consumers.........but what can you do? Allow freedom or not?

15) I do agree with some basic laws and consumer protections........but the current levels? Insane. EVERYONE is now a victim and their brains aren't even expected to work anymore......cuz the Govt or it's employees will excuse and protect them?

16) is a Given........I believe in equal opportunity for all Americans. Not equal results, though. And I'd do away with Title IX in a heartbeat. Same goes for 17.



18) There should absolutely be a MAXIMUM amount of taxes the Govt can expect from anyone......and I happen to think it should be 20% or lower for all. If they can't get it done with that amount, then they should sharpen their pencils and start learning to get by on less.

19) OMG, what a concept.......but we all know they'd never allow it. Although as a slight exemption....... I don't really have a problem acknowledging that having more wealth opens the door to more opportunities, whether it's in the medical care or legal departments. I don't ever expect to drive as nice a car or own a boat like the $Billionaire either.

20) We all know the US Govt abandoned responsible spending decades ago. Here's hoping the next Covid strain does a real number on most of those miscreants.

[Prometheus]

May 14, 2021 15:12:50 GMT abbey1227 said:

May 14, 2021 3:45:00 GMT Prometheus said:

Much but not all?

Give me your list.

I'm perfectly fine with the first 8.

9 and 10 seem to leaning towards requiring just a bit of regulation/agreed upon rules, no?

11- Unlike all the current welfare......... I do feel the Military is an absolute responsibility of the Govt.........but to the extent they're spending? and using it all over the world? I totally disagree with that.

12) Medicare and SS was the cause of a lot of this dependency thinking.......and the olde folks have become spoiled on it to the extent that they're willing to screw over their own kids and grandkids. Ain't it great?

13) Freedom of speech? I don't think it goes nearly far enough anymore. Comics being shamed? Acceptable words only? F dat nonsense. And the Govt now has private corporations doing their bidding as they're in bed together to achieve their agendas.

14) is too vague.........what is moral? I do think we're an over-sexualized country and have been groomed to be nothing but consumers.........but what can you do? Allow freedom or not?

15) I do agree with some basic laws and consumer protections........but the current levels? Insane. EVERYONE is now a victim and their brains aren't even expected to work anymore......cuz the Govt or it's employees will excuse and protect them?

16) is a Given........I believe in equal opportunity for all Americans. Not equal results, though. And I'd do away with Title IX in a heartbeat. Same goes for 17.



18) There should absolutely be a MAXIMUM amount of taxes the Govt can expect from anyone......and I happen to think it should be 20% or lower for all. If they can't get it done with that amount, then they should sharpen their pencils and start learning to get by on less.

19) OMG, what a concept.......but we all know they'd never allow it. Although as a slight exemption....... I don't really have a problem acknowledging that having more wealth opens the door to more opportunities, whether it's in the medical care or legal departments. I don't ever expect to drive as nice a car or own a boat like the $Billionaire either.

20) We all know the US Govt abandoned responsible spending decades ago. Here's hoping the next Covid strain does a real number on most of those miscreants.

1) A country where everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed, but isn’t dragged down by an insistence on equal results.

Agreed. Do you think the US offers every citizen equal opportunity for success? Do you see any roadblocks or detours that might need to be addressed?

2) A safe neighborhood where you can let your kids go out and play in the front yard without having to worry about them being shot, kidnapped or coerced by gang members.

Agreed. Maybe we should hire and train competent police officers to help us reach that goal....

3) A country as free as possible of illegal aliens who commit crimes, use taxpayer services without paying, take jobs that should go to citizens and drive down wages for Americans.

Agreed. Maybe we should do something about the people who hire them off the books (no taxes) and drive down wages. When they can't find work, they should be easier to find and deport and maybe we won't have so many knocking on our proverbial door....

4) An environment with clean air, clean water and clean soil.

So... do all the things that will combat "climate change" without ever mentioning "climate change." Got it.

5) The right to worship the God you believe in as you please, without interference from the state, as long as you don’t hurt anyone else.

So... you can discriminate based on your religious beliefs? "God hates fags"? "Kill the Jews"? "Let's beat our daughter to death because a boy saw her hair"?

That's all good?

6) An environment where Americans can reap rewards as large as the market is willing to pay for their particular talents, work ethic or unique skills.

Agreed! Bye bye corporations, unions, and stock markets!

7) The dignity of supporting yourself with a job, free of dependence on the government.

What if there are no jobs?

8) A government that will stay out of your way and allow you to reach your full potential free of interference.

I can't wait to reach my full potential as a fraud, cheat, and thief! Woohoo!

9 and 10 seem to leaning towards requiring just a bit of regulation/agreed upon rules, no?

9) The freedom to live as you please and do as you please with your property without interference from the government.

10) The ability of parents to be able to send their children to a school, public or private, that best fits their needs.

I'm weird. I think all laws are government-imposed "rules and regulations."

9: As long as your use of property doesn't interfere with your neighbor's enjoyment of their property, I'm fine with it.

10: As long as the child is following an approved core curriculum of math, language, etc. then sure. Isn't that what we have?

11) The protection of the world’s foremost military and a government that is willing to use it to insure the safety of American citizens.

11- Unlike all the current welfare......... I do feel the Military is an absolute responsibility of the Govt.........but to the extent they're spending? and using it all over the world? I totally disagree with that.

Agreed, but are you willing to move protective assets closer to home even if it means having a defensive disadvantage?

12) Medicare and Social Security programs that are financially solvent long-term so they can continue to benefit retirees

12) Medicare and SS was the cause of a lot of this dependency thinking.......and the olde folks have become spoiled on it to the extent that they're willing to screw over their own kids and grandkids. Ain't it great?

I'm not sure how the grandparents are screwing anyone over since it's the subsequent generations that pay for the previous ones. I'd ask you to elaborate but my guess is that you simply want to eliminate everything based on some people not following the rules.

13) The freedom for people to speak their minds without being censored by the government

13) Freedom of speech? I don't think it goes nearly far enough anymore. Comics being shamed? Acceptable words only? F dat nonsense. And the Govt now has private corporations doing their bidding as they're in bed together to achieve their agendas.

I think you have that backwards: It's the government doing the will of corporations, not the other way around. Maybe that's why I'm not sure about what speech the government is censoring. Do you want the "Race" options on work applications to read: White, Nigger, Spic, and Gook? Would that make you feel better?

14) A decent culture so that children have a chance to grow up without being morally corrupted

14) is too vague.........what is moral? I do think we're an over-sexualized country and have been groomed to be nothing but consumers.........but what can you do? Allow freedom or not?

I think this quote goes to the heart of what conservatives want: to be the sole arbiters of what is moral in America and I guarantee that their morality has no place for anyone other than straight, white Christians

15) A responsible government that keeps order in the streets, protects Americans from crimes, and enforces basic regulations to keep people from being taken advantage of by crooks or unscrupulous businesses.

15) I do agree with some basic laws and consumer protections........but the current levels? Insane. EVERYONE is now a victim and their brains aren't even expected to work anymore......cuz the Govt or it's employees will excuse and protect them?

I do believe the quote is about maintaining the police, FBI, DEA, BATF, etc. But if you don't mind that grandma gave your future inheritance to a Nigerian prince....

16) The ability for women to achieve their fullest potential, whether that’s by being a corporate CEO, opening their own business or staying at home as a full time mom.


17) A country where people are judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.

16) is a Given........I believe in equal opportunity for all Americans. Not equal results, though. And I'd do away with Title IX in a heartbeat. Same goes for 17.

So, we're back to: "I believe in equal rights except for people I don't like!"?

18) Low taxes, so that Americans get to keep more of their hard earned money instead of sending it to the government.

18) There should absolutely be a MAXIMUM amount of taxes the Govt can expect from anyone......and I happen to think it should be 20% or lower for all. If they can't get it done with that amount, then they should sharpen their pencils and start learning to get by on less.

And I think you're a fool who probably thinks that "supply and demand" is the end all and be all of economics. I suggest you start with "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith (only about 1300 pages) before you talk about economics again.

I'll give you props for the notion that the government should learn how to get by with less. Odd how you didn't extend that caveat to corporations....

19) A country where everyone from the President of the United to States to the humblest citizen has to obey the same laws or face the same potential penalties for breaking those laws.

19) OMG, what a concept.......but we all know they'd never allow it. Although as a slight exemption....... I don't really have a problem acknowledging that having more wealth opens the door to more opportunities, whether it's in the medical care or legal departments. I don't ever expect to drive as nice a car or own a boat like the $Billionaire either.

I hope the original author put his money where his mouth was and denounced Donnie Dimwit at every turn and screamed for his impeachment and removal.

20) A fiscally responsible government that takes great care to wisely spend the tax dollars it collects.

20) We all know the US Govt abandoned responsible spending decades ago. Here's hoping the next Covid strain does a real number on most of those miscreants.

I'm still wondering how you can think it's the government pulling the strings of big business when the big businesses are the puppeteers.

I'm thinking that a true conservative would have made "Remove all lobbyists" his number 1 quote.

But we know (based on the other quotes) that "conservatives" want to be lobbied by "moral" groups.

Some of the quotes are OK in theory, but once you start digging into them it seems clear that what conservatives really want is for everyone to agree to do things their way or they will use the might of the police force and military to make it so.

THAT, my dear Abbey is FORCE!

[Prometheus]

[abbey1227]

May 15, 2021 5:03:01 GMT Prometheus said:

Agreed. Do you think the US offers every citizen equal opportunity for success? Do you see any roadblocks or detours that might need to be addressed?I do think there is a bare minimum being offered to everyone.....even Illegals when it comes to educational and employment opportunities. So not making it in America kinda falls on yourself, unless you've got some sort of severe handicap, of course.

Agreed. Maybe we should hire and train competent police officers to help us reach that goal....You're more than welcome to sign up and show them how it's done. I just know when decent people like jpat are getting out and telling their own kids "Don't bother even trying to make a difference anymore" that we're asking way too much of the police. There's not enough training for cops in a few short years? ......but we've got supposed adults running around unable to follow simple and basic commands when in the presence of police.........even the ones that match their own general descriptions.

Agreed. Maybe we should do something about the people who hire them off the books (no taxes) and drive down wages. When they can't find work, they should be easier to find and deport and maybe we won't have so many knocking on our proverbial door....Kill all the lobbyists. And then the politicians that believe Illegals will be their future voter base. It's just simple math.......for every person here illegally, it's taking resources away from actual citizens.

4) An environment with clean air, clean water and clean soil.

So... do all the things that will combat "climate change" without ever mentioning "climate change." Got it.This is one of those funny/sad areas that make me laugh. We can agree that 'everyone' wants clean air, water and soil...........but then you actually SEE what many people do in the course of their day and apparently we're not all in agreement.

5) The right to worship the God you believe in as you please, without interference from the state, as long as you don’t hurt anyone else.

So... you can discriminate based on your religious beliefs? "God hates fags"? "Kill the Jews"? "Let's beat our daughter to death because a boy saw her hair"?

That's all good?

As long as you're not actually and directly hurting someone...........what do you care if there's discrimination? Aren't churches allowed to set their own rules when it comes to expected behavior and beliefs?.....or do we just go with whatever the latest trend in the most hep parts of society say?

6) An environment where Americans can reap rewards as large as the market is willing to pay for their particular talents, work ethic or unique skills.

Agreed! Bye bye corporations, unions, and stock markets!I don't even know what you mean by that........aside from a slight at corporations. But unions are needed?

7) The dignity of supporting yourself with a job, free of dependence on the government.

What if there are no jobs?Make some.......offer a service. Barter. etc

8) A government that will stay out of your way and allow you to reach your full potential free of interference.

I can't wait to reach my full potential as a fraud, cheat, and thief! Woohoo!

I never knew you to wanted to be a politician?

Teaching ain't good enough? 

9) The freedom to live as you please and do as you please with your property without interference from the government.

10) The ability of parents to be able to send their children to a school, public or private, that best fits their needs.

I'm weird. I think all laws are government-imposed "rules and regulations."

9: As long as your use of property doesn't interfere with your neighbor's enjoyment of their property, I'm fine with it.

10: As long as the child is following an approved core curriculum of math, language, etc. then sure. Isn't that what we have?

But you won't agree there's currently simply too many laws and regulations?

Golden Rule applies to neighbors.

We have public schools that push this notion of a 'well rounded' education instead of that insisting on that core of basic lessons first and foremost. I am guessing you're more impressed with the Chinese school system than the US.

11) The protection of the world’s foremost military and a government that is willing to use it to insure the safety of American citizens.

11- Unlike all the current welfare......... I do feel the Military is an absolute responsibility of the Govt.........but to the extent they're spending? and using it all over the world? I totally disagree with that.

Agreed, but are you willing to move protective assets closer to home even if it means having a defensive disadvantage?

Absolutely. Bring them all home. And if and when some opposing force causes trouble.......THEN go out, actually declare war and spank the shit out of your opponent. Otherwise, you're exceeding the Constitutional requirements of 'providing for the common defense', imo.

12) Medicare and Social Security programs that are financially solvent long-term so they can continue to benefit retirees

12) Medicare and SS was the cause of a lot of this dependency thinking.......and the olde folks have become spoiled on it to the extent that they're willing to screw over their own kids and grandkids. Ain't it great?

I'm not sure how the grandparents are screwing anyone over since it's the subsequent generations that pay for the previous ones. I'd ask you to elaborate but my guess is that you simply want to eliminate everything based on some people not following the rules.

On the one hand, it's not necessarily their fault as when the promises made to them, SS and Medicare, were relatively cheap to provide...........but now? Those things have gotten really expensive and the elders are voting to protect them at all costs. It seems similar to the deal the Big 3 made to their Union members back when America was riding high in the late 40s, 50s and part of the 60s.

13) The freedom for people to speak their minds without being censored by the government

13) Freedom of speech? I don't think it goes nearly far enough anymore. Comics being shamed? Acceptable words only? F dat nonsense. And the Govt now has private corporations doing their bidding as they're in bed together to achieve their agendas.

I think you have that backwards: It's the government doing the will of corporations, not the other way around. Maybe that's why I'm not sure about what speech the government is censoring. Do you want the "Race" options on work applications to read: White, Nigger, Spic, and Gook? Would that make you feel better?

The point being they're totally and blatantly in bed together........when in the past, there was supposed to be this separation between them. no?  WTF is with you and the racist assumptions? There are good and bad people in all races. That's why race don't mean shit to me........and this critical race theory is letting the inmates at the asylum call all the shots.

Hey, after all these years.......WHY is the Govt still clarifying that stuff? Even gender........ if you're applying for a job, why isn't it simply your SS Number? No need for race, gender or even a surname that might open the door for discrimination.

14) A decent culture so that children have a chance to grow up without being morally corrupted

14) is too vague.........what is moral? I do think we're an over-sexualized country and have been groomed to be nothing but consumers.........but what can you do? Allow freedom or not?

I think this quote goes to the heart of what conservatives want: to be the sole arbiters of what is moral in America and I guarantee that their morality has no place for anyone other than straight, white Christians

Yeah........but is anyone being put in charge any different? You've said it yourself.......most of these groups don't want actual Equality........they want revenge and power to abuse others. Isn't there ever a time that you, as a parent, ask yourself "WTF are they thinking these days?" when it comes to the US Govt or it's many agenda driven operatives? Or am I just an olde curmudgeon unwilling to accept inevitable change 'for the better'?

15) A responsible government that keeps order in the streets, protects Americans from crimes, and enforces basic regulations to keep people from being taken advantage of by crooks or unscrupulous businesses.

15) I do agree with some basic laws and consumer protections........but the current levels? Insane. EVERYONE is now a victim and their brains aren't even expected to work anymore......cuz the Govt or it's employees will excuse and protect them?

I do believe the quote is about maintaining the police, FBI, DEA, BATF, etc. But if you don't mind that grandma gave your future inheritance to a Nigerian prince....

Well, I'm not really expecting anything from Gramma, so if she wants a Nigerian Sugar Baby, that's her business.

As far as the FBI, DEA and BATF? More than willing to scrap a good portion of them and their dealings. Like most things Govt, they've grown too large and too intrusive.

16) The ability for women to achieve their fullest potential, whether that’s by being a corporate CEO, opening their own business or staying at home as a full time mom.


17) A country where people are judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.

16) is a Given........I believe in equal opportunity for all Americans. Not equal results, though. And I'd do away with Title IX in a heartbeat. Same goes for 17.

So, we're back to: "I believe in equal rights except for people I don't like!"?

I really don't get how you're reading that into what I wrote?   My wife, for instance, has been given opportunities and advancements the same as anyone else willing to work as hard as she did. If she were another color, I don't believe that would alter her attitude or approach.

18) Low taxes, so that Americans get to keep more of their hard earned money instead of sending it to the government.

18) There should absolutely be a MAXIMUM amount of taxes the Govt can expect from anyone......and I happen to think it should be 20% or lower for all. If they can't get it done with that amount, then they should sharpen their pencils and start learning to get by on less.

And I think you're a fool who probably thinks that "supply and demand" is the end all and be all of economics. I suggest you start with "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith (only about 1300 pages) before you talk about economics again.

I'll give you props for the notion that the government should learn how to get by with less. Odd how you didn't extend that caveat to corporations....

Again, all these years and arguments later....... you somehow believe I favor corporate welfare? F 'em. Let them fail or succeed on their own.

I don't however believe that people like Obama or Krugman and especially Biden know a GD thing about how successful economics work.

19) A country where everyone from the President of the United to States to the humblest citizen has to obey the same laws or face the same potential penalties for breaking those laws.

I hope the original author put his money where his mouth was and denounced Donnie Dimwit at every turn and screamed for his impeachment and removal.

Yeah, compared to every other president........Donnie sure was a bad influence in DC.

20) A fiscally responsible government that takes great care to wisely spend the tax dollars it collects.

I'm still wondering how you can think it's the government pulling the strings of big business when the big businesses are the puppeteers.

I'm thinking that a true conservative would have made "Remove all lobbyists" his number 1 quote.

But we know (based on the other quotes) that "conservatives" want to be lobbied by "moral" groups.

Some of the quotes are OK in theory, but once you start digging into them it seems clear that what conservatives really want is for everyone to agree to do things their way or they will use the might of the police force and military to make it so.

THAT, my dear Abbey is FORCE!

Big business, small business, etc.........doesn't have the ability to force me to do business with them. Govt does. You claim Govt is being controlled by them......so then shrink the size and control of Govt. How then does business force anything?

Govt is supposed to be an impartial referee. They're not.....especially as they need the money and influence to get re-elected year after year.

Shoot all Lobbyists dead, as far as I'm concerned........but that's still leaving the same people in DC.

And liberals are not doing the exact same thing? They stood around with their thumbs in their collective asses while Portland and Seattle and Minneapolis burned........hardly anyone arrested or held responsible?

But the January 6 capital 'riot' takes place, and the FBI is up to 500 arrests? And they're targeting anyone that supported Trump, too?

Let's not forget the last year and the force of Govt locking down the country and dictating to people and businesses. Ridiculous........but I suppose the heavily groomed and fearful population was all too ready to be pushed around.

I know I'm just fondly looking back on some mean tweets and $1.74/gallon for gas. I won't even mention that non-crisis at our southern border.

[Prometheus]

May 15, 2021 13:37:28 GMT abbey1227 said:

May 15, 2021 5:03:01 GMT Prometheus said:

Agreed. Do you think the US offers every citizen equal opportunity for success? Do you see any roadblocks or detours that might need to be addressed?I do think there is a bare minimum being offered to everyone.....even Illegals when it comes to educational and employment opportunities. So not making it in America kinda falls on yourself, unless you've got some sort of severe handicap, of course.

Agreed. Maybe we should hire and train competent police officers to help us reach that goal....You're more than welcome to sign up and show them how it's done. I just know when decent people like jpat are getting out and telling their own kids "Don't bother even trying to make a difference anymore" that we're asking way too much of the police. There's not enough training for cops in a few short years? ......but we've got supposed adults running around unable to follow simple and basic commands when in the presence of police.........even the ones that match their own general descriptions.

Agreed. Maybe we should do something about the people who hire them off the books (no taxes) and drive down wages. When they can't find work, they should be easier to find and deport and maybe we won't have so many knocking on our proverbial door....Kill all the lobbyists. And then the politicians that believe Illegals will be their future voter base. It's just simple math.......for every person here illegally, it's taking resources away from actual citizens.

So... do all the things that will combat "climate change" without ever mentioning "climate change." Got it.This is one of those funny/sad areas that make me laugh. We can agree that 'everyone' wants clean air, water and soil...........but then you actually SEE what many people do in the course of their day and apparently we're not all in agreement.

So... you can discriminate based on your religious beliefs? "God hates fags"? "Kill the Jews"? "Let's beat our daughter to death because a boy saw her hair"?

That's all good?

As long as you're not actually and directly hurting someone...........what do you care if there's discrimination? Aren't churches allowed to set their own rules when it comes to expected behavior and beliefs?.....or do we just go with whatever the latest trend in the most hep parts of society say?

Agreed! Bye bye corporations, unions, and stock markets!I don't even know what you mean by that........aside from a slight at corporations. But unions are needed?

What if there are no jobs?Make some.......offer a service. Barter. etc

I can't wait to reach my full potential as a fraud, cheat, and thief! Woohoo!

I never knew you to wanted to be a politician?

Teaching ain't good enough? 

I'm weird. I think all laws are government-imposed "rules and regulations."

9: As long as your use of property doesn't interfere with your neighbor's enjoyment of their property, I'm fine with it.

10: As long as the child is following an approved core curriculum of math, language, etc. then sure. Isn't that what we have?

But you won't agree there's currently simply too many laws and regulations?

Golden Rule applies to neighbors.

We have public schools that push this notion of a 'well rounded' education instead of that insisting on that core of basic lessons first and foremost. I am guessing you're more impressed with the Chinese school system than the US.

Agreed, but are you willing to move protective assets closer to home even if it means having a defensive disadvantage?

Absolutely. Bring them all home. And if and when some opposing force causes trouble.......THEN go out, actually declare war and spank the shit out of your opponent. Otherwise, you're exceeding the Constitutional requirements of 'providing for the common defense', imo.

I'm not sure how the grandparents are screwing anyone over since it's the subsequent generations that pay for the previous ones. I'd ask you to elaborate but my guess is that you simply want to eliminate everything based on some people not following the rules.

On the one hand, it's not necessarily their fault as when the promises made to them, SS and Medicare, were relatively cheap to provide...........but now? Those things have gotten really expensive and the elders are voting to protect them at all costs. It seems similar to the deal the Big 3 made to their Union members back when America was riding high in the late 40s, 50s and part of the 60s.

I think you have that backwards: It's the government doing the will of corporations, not the other way around. Maybe that's why I'm not sure about what speech the government is censoring. Do you want the "Race" options on work applications to read: White, Nigger, Spic, and Gook? Would that make you feel better?

The point being they're totally and blatantly in bed together........when in the past, there was supposed to be this separation between them. no?  WTF is with you and the racist assumptions? There are good and bad people in all races. That's why race don't mean shit to me........and this critical race theory is letting the inmates at the asylum call all the shots.

Hey, after all these years.......WHY is the Govt still clarifying that stuff? Even gender........ if you're applying for a job, why isn't it simply your SS Number? No need for race, gender or even a surname that might open the door for discrimination.

I think this quote goes to the heart of what conservatives want: to be the sole arbiters of what is moral in America and I guarantee that their morality has no place for anyone other than straight, white Christians

Yeah........but is anyone being put in charge any different? You've said it yourself.......most of these groups don't want actual Equality........they want revenge and power to abuse others. Isn't there ever a time that you, as a parent, ask yourself "WTF are they thinking these days?" when it comes to the US Govt or it's many agenda driven operatives? Or am I just an olde curmudgeon unwilling to accept inevitable change 'for the better'?

I do believe the quote is about maintaining the police, FBI, DEA, BATF, etc. But if you don't mind that grandma gave your future inheritance to a Nigerian prince....

Well, I'm not really expecting anything from Gramma, so if she wants a Nigerian Sugar Baby, that's her business.

As far as the FBI, DEA and BATF? More than willing to scrap a good portion of them and their dealings. Like most things Govt, they've grown too large and too intrusive.

So, we're back to: "I believe in equal rights except for people I don't like!"?

I really don't get how you're reading that into what I wrote?   My wife, for instance, has been given opportunities and advancements the same as anyone else willing to work as hard as she did. If she were another color, I don't believe that would alter her attitude or approach.

And I think you're a fool who probably thinks that "supply and demand" is the end all and be all of economics. I suggest you start with "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith (only about 1300 pages) before you talk about economics again.

I'll give you props for the notion that the government should learn how to get by with less. Odd how you didn't extend that caveat to corporations....

Again, all these years and arguments later....... you somehow believe I favor corporate welfare? F 'em. Let them fail or succeed on their own.

I don't however believe that people like Obama or Krugman and especially Biden know a GD thing about how successful economics work.

I hope the original author put his money where his mouth was and denounced Donnie Dimwit at every turn and screamed for his impeachment and removal.

Yeah, compared to every other president........Donnie sure was a bad influence in DC.

I'm still wondering how you can think it's the government pulling the strings of big business when the big businesses are the puppeteers.

I'm thinking that a true conservative would have made "Remove all lobbyists" his number 1 quote.

But we know (based on the other quotes) that "conservatives" want to be lobbied by "moral" groups.

Some of the quotes are OK in theory, but once you start digging into them it seems clear that what conservatives really want is for everyone to agree to do things their way or they will use the might of the police force and military to make it so.

THAT, my dear Abbey is FORCE!

Big business, small business, etc.........doesn't have the ability to force me to do business with them. Govt does. You claim Govt is being controlled by them......so then shrink the size and control of Govt. How then does business force anything?

Govt is supposed to be an impartial referee. They're not.....especially as they need the money and influence to get re-elected year after year.

Shoot all Lobbyists dead, as far as I'm concerned........but that's still leaving the same people in DC.

And liberals are not doing the exact same thing? They stood around with their thumbs in their collective asses while Portland and Seattle and Minneapolis burned........hardly anyone arrested or held responsible?

But the January 6 capital 'riot' takes place, and the FBI is up to 500 arrests? And they're targeting anyone that supported Trump, too?

Let's not forget the last year and the force of Govt locking down the country and dictating to people and businesses. Ridiculous........but I suppose the heavily groomed and fearful population was all too ready to be pushed around.

I know I'm just fondly looking back on some mean tweets and $1.74/gallon for gas. I won't even mention that non-crisis at our southern border.

This one's going to take a while and I have to get ready for work soon.

Do me a favor and drop a like on this post as a reminder for either this evening or tomorrow.

[Prometheus]

Agreed. Do you think the US offers every citizen equal opportunity for success? Do you see any roadblocks or detours that might need to be addressed?

I do think there is a bare minimum being offered to everyone.....even Illegals when it comes to educational and employment opportunities. So not making it in America kinda falls on yourself, unless you've got some sort of severe handicap, of course.

I said "citizens" so we're just going to let your comment about illegals go.

You seriously think everyone is being offered the same opportunities? Do you really think that having access to a school = getting a quality education?

Oh, that's right. You said, "bare minimum" as in "You managed to stay alive for 5 years, here's a book, now fuck off and learn how to read!"

[Prometheus]

Agreed. Maybe we should hire and train competent police officers to help us reach that goal....

You're more than welcome to sign up and show them how it's done.

Were I a younger man and so inclined....

I just know when decent people like jpat are getting out and telling their own kids "Don't bother even trying to make a difference anymore" that we're asking way too much of the police.

Exactly what "defunding the police" is all about, Abs. Glad to see that you're finally on board!

There's not enough training for cops in a few short years?

Do you think the police in the US get years of training?

Police officers in the US receive between 10 and 36 weeks worth of training... most closer to the 10 than the 36. Then they get about 6 months OTJ training before being cut loose on the community by themselves.

By comparison, the police in the UK spend 2 to 3 years between basic training and OTJ training before they are no longer considered "rookies" and allowed to be on their own. Even more training is required if they are chosen to be in the armed response unit.

......but we've got supposed adults running around unable to follow simple and basic commands when in the presence of police.........even the ones that match their own general descriptions.

Yeah. Maybe if ALL the police were worthy of respect, they'd ALL be treated respectfully?

This is where you try to dodge with all the "criminals aren't respectful of the law" herpaderp so that you don't have to admit that there are people out there getting pulled over for no other reason other than the cop wanting to exercise his authority, power, and racism.

Yeah. Racism.

I guarantee that if you kept getting pulled over by every black cop in town, you'd start thinking it was more about your red hair and lily-white skin rather than going 5 over the limit or having an air-freshener dangling from your mirror. You might even start getting more and more pissed every time you saw those lights in your review mirror. You might even start getting a little terse in your responses to the nice officer. How long before you snap and say, "Why the fuck are you pulling me over this fucking time?!"

"Step out of the car please. Keep your hands where I can see them."

This is the part where you lie and tell me that you'd be completely OK with being pulled over once a week by the black cops on the force and that you'd be completely friendly and never, ever drive away with anything but love for the police in your heart.

[Prometheus]

Agreed. Maybe we should do something about the people who hire them off the books (no taxes) and drive down wages. When they can't find work, they should be easier to find and deport and maybe we won't have so many knocking on our proverbial door....

Kill all the lobbyists. And then the politicians that believe Illegals will be their future voter base.

Yes. All of those conservative, Catholic illegals who hate abortion and are willing to WORK are absolutely going to gravitate towards the "kill a fetus and take some food stamps" party.

It's just simple math.......for every person here illegally, it's taking resources away from actual citizens.

So make coming here an undesirable prospect.

You acknowledge that they are taking away jobs (that most Americans don't actually want, but whatever) so what's the problem with making sure there are no jobs for them?

This is where you tell me that they'll just keep coming for all the free stuff... after you just admitted that they want to work....

I suppose that if I were you, I'd be more worried about illegals as well. After all, you're just a drone who is easily replaceable. Hell. If I were just a drone, I'd be worried about more actual citizens getting off welfare as well. I mean, if "getting by" is as easy as you say, just one person getting off welfare and being able to do your job even slightly better would be a threat. Better to just keep them down while complaining about the system that enables them, right?

[Prometheus]

So... do all the things that will combat "climate change" without ever mentioning "climate change." Got it.

This is one of those funny/sad areas that make me laugh. We can agree that 'everyone' wants clean air, water and soil...........but then you actually SEE what many people do in the course of their day and apparently we're not all in agreement.

And a lot of those people not doing what is right also happen to be "conservatives."

In fact, "conservatives" seem to be the biggest stumbling block to keeping our soil, air, and water clean.

Seems to me that they should be on the same page as the "liberals" but they're not. I suspect that it's strictly about being adversarial rather than doing what's right. Can't admit that those damn libs actually had a good point!

[Prometheus]

5) The right to worship the God you believe in as you please, without interference from the state, as long as you don’t hurt anyone else.
So... you can discriminate based on your religious beliefs? "God hates fags"? "Kill the Jews"? "Let's beat our daughter to death because a boy saw her hair"?

That's all good?

As long as you're not actually and directly hurting someone...........what do you care if there's discrimination? Aren't churches allowed to set their own rules when it comes to expected behavior and beliefs?.....or do we just go with whatever the latest trend in the most hep parts of society say?

Did you notice that every example I gave was about hurting other people?

[Prometheus]

6) An environment where Americans can reap rewards as large as the market is willing to pay for their particular talents, work ethic or unique skills.

Agreed! Bye bye corporations, unions, and stock markets!

I don't even know what you mean by that........aside from a slight at corporations. But unions are needed?

I really mean get rid of them all

[abbey1227]

May 17, 2021 4:32:38 GMT Prometheus said:

Agreed. Do you think the US offers every citizen equal opportunity for success? Do you see any roadblocks or detours that might need to be addressed?

I do think there is a bare minimum being offered to everyone.....even Illegals when it comes to educational and employment opportunities. So not making it in America kinda falls on yourself, unless you've got some sort of severe handicap, of course.

I said "citizens" so we're just going to let your comment about illegals go.

You seriously think everyone is being offered the same opportunities? Do you really think that having access to a school = getting a quality education?

Oh, that's right. You said, "bare minimum" as in "You managed to stay alive for 5 years, here's a book, now fuck off and learn how to read!"

Why just let it go, though? Every dollar spent on Illegals takes away from dollars available to spend on citizens. That's something we can agree on, no?

I don't want China spending a nickel on unwelcome foreigners anymore than any other country.

That's right. There should be a bare minimum. Unlike the mess they've created. I'm fine with teaching to read.......but after that? I know you've got a perpetual love on for teachers, but aren't motivated people able to gain access to whatever interests them without the need for so much bureaucracy?

[Prometheus]

7) The dignity of supporting yourself with a job, free of dependence on the government.

What if there are no jobs?

Make some.......offer a service. Barter. etc

"Hi. I'd like to buy that new $40,000 Cadillac. In return for that car, I promise to come here and sweep floors, 4 hours a day for the next 1,333 days."

To explain my calculations:

I suspect that sweeping floors is worth a maximum of $7.5/hour and you'll only have 4 hours available, because you need sweep some other floors in exchange for your food, clothing, shelter, insurance, utilities, gas for the car, and so on.

I didn't even include interest.

[Prometheus]

8) A government that will stay out of your way and allow you to reach your full potential free of interference.
I can't wait to reach my full potential as a fraud, cheat, and thief! Woohoo!

I never knew you to wanted to be a politician?
Teaching ain't good enough?

Cute, but I'm hoping you're smart enough to realize that I was only commenting on the blanket nature of the original quote and how foolish it sounds.

[abbey1227]

May 17, 2021 4:58:33 GMT Prometheus said:

Were I a younger man and so inclined....

Sure, sure........that and you were just too interested in better areas of work. 

Exactly what "defunding the police" is all about, Abs. Glad to see that you're finally on board!

Like 'open borders' ...... I think we'll just have to stick with the sources we've both chosen. You can buy all that 're-imagined' garbage they're selling......but here, they're actually implying their lives would be better without the police. And I say let them find out for themselves. Just like I think they should be sent to places like Venezuela to find out just how great democratic socialism can be.

There's not enough training for cops in a few short years?

Do you think the police in the US get years of training?

Police officers in the US receive between 10 and 36 weeks worth of training... most closer to the 10 than the 36. Then they get about 6 months OTJ training before being cut loose on the community by themselves.

By comparison, the police in the UK spend 2 to 3 years between basic training and OTJ training before they are no longer considered "rookies" and allowed to be on their own. Even more training is required if they are chosen to be in the armed response unit.

Ummmm, most police in the US required a minimum 2-4 years higher education for most departments. They don't usually just hire thugs and bouncers off the street, give 'em a few weeks of coaching and then hand them a gun and a badge that I'm aware of. How is it we have such a variance in belief on their training? And they're always faced with the latest policies and procedures depending on the latest trends and politics.

......but we've got supposed adults running around unable to follow simple and basic commands when in the presence of police.........even the ones that match their own general descriptions.

Yeah. Maybe if ALL the police were worthy of respect, they'd ALL be treated respectfully?

Are all people worthy of respect? All teachers? All redheads? No

This is where you try to dodge with all the "criminals aren't respectful of the law" herpaderp so that you don't have to admit that there are people out there getting pulled over for no other reason other than the cop wanting to exercise his authority, power, and racism.

All the more reason to reduce the number of laws and the budgets of Govt, no?

Yeah. Racism.

I'm sure there are bits of racism remaining.........there may even be a form of jaded intolerance after months and years on the job. But the US is not this hotbed of racism that's being pushed currently. (Without even mentioning the racism that exists within all races) And hearing it from other countries that have nowhere near the diversity and tolerance of the US is growing old. For such a racist place, there seems to be no shortage of brown or black people coming here........and most of them do better that people who have been here their whole lives. How do we explain that away?

I guarantee that if you kept getting pulled over by every black cop in town, you'd start thinking it was more about your red hair and lily-white skin rather than going 5 over the limit or having an air-freshener dangling from your mirror. You might even start getting more and more pissed every time you saw those lights in your review mirror. You might even start getting a little terse in your responses to the nice officer. How long before you snap and say, "Why the fuck are you pulling me over this fucking time?!"

Except I already sorta went thru that in my early adulthood into my mid-20s. And then I figured out it was a combination of the policies in place, my vehicle and my behavior that was attracting the attention. Had nothing to do with the color of my hair......or skin. And after adjusting my choice of vehicles and driving habits..... Voila! I stopped being pulled over.

"Step out of the car please. Keep your hands where I can see them."

This is the part where you lie and tell me that you'd be completely OK with being pulled over once a week by the black cops on the force and that you'd be completely friendly and never, ever drive away with anything but love for the police in your heart.

Not at all. But if I was repeatedly pulled over by the same cops, for truly no reason.......... I'd be sure to get their names and start filing some complaints. There's no way I'd bother arguing with them on the side of the road late at night....or worse, resisting arrest and giving them the opportunity to escalate the stop into something much worse. Y'know?.......just like jpat has explained how he taught both of his sons to handle themselves way down in Georgia? Shit, I might even consider moving to another area.

[abbey1227]

May 17, 2021 5:11:31 GMT Prometheus said:

Yes. All of those conservative, Catholic illegals who hate abortion and are willing to WORK are absolutely going to gravitate towards the "kill a fetus and take some food stamps" party.

So make coming here an undesirable prospect.

You acknowledge that they are taking away jobs (that most Americans don't actually want, but whatever) so what's the problem with making sure there are no jobs for them?

This is where you tell me that they'll just keep coming for all the free stuff... after you just admitted that they want to work....

I suppose that if I were you, I'd be more worried about illegals as well. After all, you're just a drone who is easily replaceable. Hell. If I were just a drone, I'd be worried about more actual citizens getting off welfare as well. I mean, if "getting by" is as easy as you say, just one person getting off welfare and being able to do your job even slightly better would be a threat. Better to just keep them down while complaining about the system that enables them, right?

Awful lotta people in the US subsisting on handouts. If they were required to work for them, then maybe there wouldn't be such an acceptable thing as 'jobs Americans don't want'? What an elitist attitude to have anyway? Americans are too good for that? But foreigners aren't?

It's the FREE stuff keeping both the Illegals and the American layabouts part of this annoyingly perpetual game.

I absolutely am a low level and easily replaceable drone. Like most Americans. Or did you expect I'd agree that we aren't? I've got no illusions. This is what's currently making me laugh out loud about the $15/hr demand. The way things are going right now?........they shoulda demanded $30/hr cuz $15 ain't gonna make a dent in the quickly rising costs here now.

By all means, step up to the plate, do the job better than me, and replace me. Then I guess I'd have to up my game, as well. That's how actual progress and improvements happen, imo.