Housing Shortage

[merh]

Dec 31, 2022 0:05:17 GMT Prometheus said:

Isn't it weird how Abbey slams the renters for not having a 6-month "emergency fund" but doesn't hold the landlords to the same standard?

David Mills: Scrooge and Mr. Potter wage the real war on Christmas
Opinion by David Mills - Wednesday

You may be surprised to find that some people believe that Ebeneezer Scrooge is a hero — the pre-ghost, pre-enlightened Ebeneezer Scrooge, that is. You may be shocked to find that many of them believe that Mr. Potter is the real good guy in “It’s a Wonderful Life.”

The first argue that Scrooge before the three ghosts showed him what a horrible man he was, benefited more people through his business than he did after he changed. Some even claim that he was a better man then, and that the post-ghost Scrooge only made things worse by encouraging the poor in their shiftless ways. He should have fired Bob Cratchit rather than helping him and his family. (I am not making that up.)

The second argue that Potter had created all the good things in Pottersville through his business and that in the real world George Bailey would have destroyed the town and the lives of the people in it. Hard-nosed buying and selling, that’s the way to make things work, no matter who gets hurt.

If you want a war on Christmas, there it is.

It’s fair to say that Charles Dickens and Frank Capra don’t recognize the good that buying and selling does, and the extent to which free markets create broad prosperity. People have to have money to give money. You can’t use either story in an economics class. The Scrooge-Potter fan club isn’t completely wrong.

But they get very wrong a truth about human society, which we might call the Christmas idea. That is that every human being matters, not a little but completely and ultimately. No one’s a thing. No one’s good can be sacrificed to abstract principles and theories. If the Creator of the universe comes to us as a baby, permanently joins the human race, he makes everyone his brother and sister, and you don’t treat God’s brother and sister as a thing. You can believe the idea even if you don’t believe the story of Jesus’s birth. It has other bases than the Christian one.

When I was growing up, the most politicized people tended to think of some people as things. The rightwing claimed that feeding starving people helped leftwing governments control them, because well-fed people don’t rebel. The leftwing claimed that feeding starving people helped rightwing governments control them, because well-fed people don’t rebel. So don’t feed them.

This wasn’t a stupid argument, but I think it was a barbaric one. It meant you were happy to sacrifice living human beings for a hoped-for future when your side finally wins. In the meantime — however many generations that might be — men, women and children must die in agony because someday, maybe, possibly, other people would have better lives. So would say the pre-enlightened Scrooge and the never-enlightened Potter.

That child who hasn’t eaten for days? That baby who can’t nurse because her mother is too hungry to give milk? That father who doesn’t eat so his children will have what little he has? Tough luck, kids! Them’s the breaks. We’ve got to sacrifice you so the new world — libertarian or socialist — will someday arrive in all its glory. Ok, maybe it won’t, but we’re willing for you to take the risk

david-mills-scrooge-and-mr-potter-wage-the-real-war-on-christmas.

The libertarians seem to fall onto the Scrooge was better off before the ghosts got to him.

[Prometheus]

Dec 31, 2022 5:34:08 GMT merh said:

Dec 31, 2022 0:05:17 GMT Prometheus said:

Isn't it weird how Abbey slams the renters for not having a 6-month "emergency fund" but doesn't hold the landlords to the same standard?

David Mills: Scrooge and Mr. Potter wage the real war on Christmas
Opinion by David Mills - Wednesday

You may be surprised to find that some people believe that Ebeneezer Scrooge is a hero — the pre-ghost, pre-enlightened Ebeneezer Scrooge, that is. You may be shocked to find that many of them believe that Mr. Potter is the real good guy in “It’s a Wonderful Life.”

The first argue that Scrooge before the three ghosts showed him what a horrible man he was, benefited more people through his business than he did after he changed. Some even claim that he was a better man then, and that the post-ghost Scrooge only made things worse by encouraging the poor in their shiftless ways. He should have fired Bob Cratchit rather than helping him and his family. (I am not making that up.)

The second argue that Potter had created all the good things in Pottersville through his business and that in the real world George Bailey would have destroyed the town and the lives of the people in it. Hard-nosed buying and selling, that’s the way to make things work, no matter who gets hurt.

If you want a war on Christmas, there it is.

It’s fair to say that Charles Dickens and Frank Capra don’t recognize the good that buying and selling does, and the extent to which free markets create broad prosperity. People have to have money to give money. You can’t use either story in an economics class. The Scrooge-Potter fan club isn’t completely wrong.

But they get very wrong a truth about human society, which we might call the Christmas idea. That is that every human being matters, not a little but completely and ultimately. No one’s a thing. No one’s good can be sacrificed to abstract principles and theories. If the Creator of the universe comes to us as a baby, permanently joins the human race, he makes everyone his brother and sister, and you don’t treat God’s brother and sister as a thing. You can believe the idea even if you don’t believe the story of Jesus’s birth. It has other bases than the Christian one.

When I was growing up, the most politicized people tended to think of some people as things. The rightwing claimed that feeding starving people helped leftwing governments control them, because well-fed people don’t rebel. The leftwing claimed that feeding starving people helped rightwing governments control them, because well-fed people don’t rebel. So don’t feed them.

This wasn’t a stupid argument, but I think it was a barbaric one. It meant you were happy to sacrifice living human beings for a hoped-for future when your side finally wins. In the meantime — however many generations that might be — men, women and children must die in agony because someday, maybe, possibly, other people would have better lives. So would say the pre-enlightened Scrooge and the never-enlightened Potter.

That child who hasn’t eaten for days? That baby who can’t nurse because her mother is too hungry to give milk? That father who doesn’t eat so his children will have what little he has? Tough luck, kids! Them’s the breaks. We’ve got to sacrifice you so the new world — libertarian or socialist — will someday arrive in all its glory. Ok, maybe it won’t, but we’re willing for you to take the risk

david-mills-scrooge-and-mr-potter-wage-the-real-war-on-christmas.

The libertarians seem to fall onto the Scrooge was better off before the ghosts got to him.

I think he means the current crop of "libertarians" AKA Republicans pretending to be socially liberal so they can dodge being call "Republicans."

[abbey1227]

Dec 31, 2022 5:20:13 GMT merh said:

Dec 30, 2022 14:57:10 GMT abbey1227 said:

of course YOU & Others do in some way. You feel superior to people like me that aren't as charitable or willing to support so many govt programs.

Yeah, that saying usually doesn't cover the "What IF it were ME being the rich person getting bent over for all the handouts?" cuz most Americans know they won't bother putting themselves in that position of having wealth anytime soon.

Do you think I feel superior to you?

If I did, I wouldn't bother engaging in debate with you.

Just finished another viewing of Christmas Carol.

Ever notice how many people say they feel sorry for Scrooge? That he is only hurting himself?

So, yeah.
You are limiting yourself.

I prefer giving presents, seeing the people's happiness.

Spent so much today. I was talking to my sister & suddenly the dude in the next car complimented me on how happy I seemed.

In a way, I would absolutely guess that you do. You're more caring, more charitable, more giving, more tolerant, more understanding of others and all that jazz.

Really? We'd have to be total equals for a conversation to continue?

Well, you gotta admit Scrooge is carrying it to Nth degree with the curmudgeony behavior. There's this proverb/parable kinda lesson they're pushing with the story of the 3 Ghosts, though. Now my question would simply be WHERE is the middle ground? If the wealthy guy is supposed to learn his lesson.......why aren't the perpetually poor supposed to learn a thing?

I like giving presents, too.......more than receiving them, that's for sure. But I also limit who may even be eligible to receive a present from me.

So would you be OK saying you're willing to bear a little strife and debt.........in order to give presents to others?

The wife and I didn't even exchange any gifts for Xmas this year. We've both got all we could want. We'll just get together with her parents and have a nice meal.

[abbey1227]

Dec 31, 2022 5:34:08 GMT merh said:

Dec 31, 2022 0:05:17 GMT Prometheus said:

Isn't it weird how Abbey slams the renters for not having a 6-month "emergency fund" but doesn't hold the landlords to the same standard?

David Mills: Scrooge and Mr. Potter wage the real war on Christmas
Opinion by David Mills - Wednesday


The first argue that Scrooge before the three ghosts showed him what a horrible man he was, benefited more people through his business than he did after he changed. Some even claim that he was a better man then, and that the post-ghost Scrooge only made things worse by encouraging the poor in their shiftless ways. He should have fired Bob Cratchit rather than helping him and his family. (I am not making that up.)

The second argue that Potter had created all the good things in Pottersville through his business and that in the real world George Bailey would have destroyed the town and the lives of the people in it. Hard-nosed buying and selling, that’s the way to make things work, no matter who gets hurt.

david-mills-scrooge-and-mr-potter-wage-the-real-war-on-christmas.

The libertarians seem to fall onto the Scrooge was better off before the ghosts got to him.

Now I have indeed argued that Potter was simply doing what smart business people do........buy low, sell high and exploit the market whenever possible. The only truly dastardly thing he did was steal stupid Uncle Billy's deposit.

Potter left alone and unchecked with no competition would have surely driven the town into the the scummier place Pottersville that George sees after he was never born.

But that also doesn't mean that George is bad or terribly stupid. He sacrificed time and again for other people. You seeing many people like that around? These days, George would most likely have ended up bankrupt, possibly facing charges, divorced and THEN killed himself.

And all those compassionate and giving people who repaid George for his kindness........did all of them follow his advice of NOT taking Potter's offer to buy out their shares? No, and the numbers would likely be much higher today. Just look at all the people who walked away from their mortgages during the housing crash. They didn't listen to George explaining that the money wasn't IN the Savings & Loan........but it had been invested into their own community, homes, businesses, etc. So THEY made Potter even more wealthy.

I have also argued many times that uber wealthy people, especially as they get up there in age.......often use their wealth to set up charities for lots of things. Our first libraries were given by a few of the Founders. So let's not make it a total Rich vs Poor thing........as if only the poor are virtuous. When they clearly are often not.

If the renter isn't supposed to be prepared financially.......why is the landlord?.........and the landlord's bank, should they be kind hearted and understanding when those mortgage payments don't arrive?.....and the large Central Banks/Federal  Reserve,  will they be kind hearted and understanding when the smaller banks don't have the necessary funds?.......and when the Govt doesn't get it's cut and collect it's taxes........will it simply understand that it all started with the littlest person in the equation, so let's just all skip collecting payments altogether? I fricken doubt it. In fact, I know otherwise.

[merh]

Dec 31, 2022 13:36:54 GMT abbey1227 said:

Dec 31, 2022 5:20:13 GMT merh said:

Do you think I feel superior to you?

If I did, I wouldn't bother engaging in debate with you.

Just finished another viewing of Christmas Carol.

Ever notice how many people say they feel sorry for Scrooge? That he is only hurting himself?

So, yeah.
You are limiting yourself.

I prefer giving presents, seeing the people's happiness.

Spent so much today. I was talking to my sister & suddenly the dude in the next car complimented me on how happy I seemed.

In a way, I would absolutely guess that you do. You're more caring, more charitable, more giving, more tolerant, more understanding of others and all that jazz.

Really? We'd have to be total equals for a conversation to continue?

Well, you gotta admit Scrooge is carrying it to Nth degree with the curmudgeony behavior. There's this proverb/parable kinda lesson they're pushing with the story of the 3 Ghosts, though. Now my question would simply be WHERE is the middle ground? If the wealthy guy is supposed to learn his lesson.......why aren't the perpetually poor supposed to learn a thing?

I like giving presents, too.......more than receiving them, that's for sure. But I also limit who may even be eligible to receive a present from me.

So would you be OK saying you're willing to bear a little strife and debt.........in order to give presents to others?

The wife and I didn't even exchange any gifts for Xmas this year. We've both got all we could want. We'll just get together with her parents and have a nice meal.

I would not go to the length I do with you if I thought you were a mindless troll.

 It was a reflection of Dickens own life.
He was horrified by the poor houses & child labor of the day.

His dad apparently spent all their money or he would have been more in the lifestyle of Fred (the nephew)

The only people I gave to this year was my sister ($50 Barnes & Noble card. $65 Amazon for her 64th birthday on Christmas) & my kid ($50 Barnes & Noble, $25 Regal Cinema, $110 Game Stop, $100 bill)

My kid got me the Supernatural Men of Letters Bestiary.

[merh]

Dec 31, 2022 13:48:11 GMT abbey1227 said:

Dec 31, 2022 5:34:08 GMT merh said:

david-mills-scrooge-and-mr-potter-wage-the-real-war-on-christmas.

The libertarians seem to fall onto the Scrooge was better off before the ghosts got to him.

Now I have indeed argued that Potter was simply doing what smart business people do........buy low, sell high and exploit the market whenever possible. The only truly dastardly thing he did was steal stupid Uncle Billy's deposit.

Potter left alone and unchecked with no competition would have surely driven the town into the the scummier place Pottersville that George sees after he was never born.

But that also doesn't mean that George is bad or terribly stupid. He sacrificed time and again for other people. You seeing many people like that around? These days, George would most likely have ended up bankrupt, possibly facing charges, divorced and THEN killed himself.

And all those compassionate and giving people who repaid George for his kindness........did all of them follow his advice of NOT taking Potter's offer to buy out their shares? No, and the numbers would likely be much higher today. Just look at all the people who walked away from their mortgages during the housing crash. They didn't listen to George explaining that the money wasn't IN the Savings & Loan........but it had been invested into their own community, homes, businesses, etc. So THEY made Potter even more wealthy.

I have also argued many times that uber wealthy people, especially as they get up there in age.......often use their wealth to set up charities for lots of things. Our first libraries were given by a few of the Founders. So let's not make it a total Rich vs Poor thing........as if only the poor are virtuous. When they clearly are often not.

If the renter isn't supposed to be prepared financially.......why is the landlord?.........and the landlord's bank, should they be kind hearted and understanding when those mortgage payments don't arrive?.....and the large Central Banks/Federal  Reserve,  will they be kind hearted and understanding when the smaller banks don't have the necessary funds?.......and when the Govt doesn't get it's cut and collect it's taxes........will it simply understand that it all started with the littlest person in the equation, so let's just all skip collecting payments altogether? I fricken doubt it. In fact, I know otherwise.

Homeowners don't get bailed out?
Tax credits?
Disaster destroys the home & uncle Sam backs them out?

[Prometheus]

Dec 31, 2022 13:48:11 GMT abbey1227 said:

Dec 31, 2022 5:34:08 GMT merh said:

david-mills-scrooge-and-mr-potter-wage-the-real-war-on-christmas.

The libertarians seem to fall onto the Scrooge was better off before the ghosts got to him.

Now I have indeed argued that Potter was simply doing what smart business people do........buy low, sell high and exploit the market whenever possible. The only truly dastardly thing he did was steal stupid Uncle Billy's deposit.

Potter left alone and unchecked with no competition would have surely driven the town into the the scummier place Pottersville that George sees after he was never born.

But that also doesn't mean that George is bad or terribly stupid. He sacrificed time and again for other people. You seeing many people like that around? These days, George would most likely have ended up bankrupt, possibly facing charges, divorced and THEN killed himself.

And all those compassionate and giving people who repaid George for his kindness........did all of them follow his advice of NOT taking Potter's offer to buy out their shares? No, and the numbers would likely be much higher today. Just look at all the people who walked away from their mortgages during the housing crash. They didn't listen to George explaining that the money wasn't IN the Savings & Loan........but it had been invested into their own community, homes, businesses, etc. So THEY made Potter even more wealthy.

I have also argued many times that uber wealthy people, especially as they get up there in age.......often use their wealth to set up charities for lots of things. Our first libraries were given by a few of the Founders. So let's not make it a total Rich vs Poor thing........as if only the poor are virtuous. When they clearly are often not.

If the renter isn't supposed to be prepared financially.......why is the landlord?.........and the landlord's bank, should they be kind hearted and understanding when those mortgage payments don't arrive?.....and the large Central Banks/Federal  Reserve,  will they be kind hearted and understanding when the smaller banks don't have the necessary funds?.......and when the Govt doesn't get it's cut and collect it's taxes........will it simply understand that it all started with the littlest person in the equation, so let's just all skip collecting payments altogether? I fricken doubt it. In fact, I know otherwise.

[abbey1227]

Jan 2, 2023 21:42:28 GMT merh said:

I would not go to the length I do with you if I thought you were a mindless troll.

 It was a reflection of Dickens own life.
He was horrified by the poor houses & child labor of the day.

His dad apparently spent all their money or he would have been more in the lifestyle of Fred (the nephew)

The only people I gave to this year was my sister ($50 Barnes & Noble card. $65 Amazon for her 64th birthday on Christmas) & my kid ($50 Barnes & Noble, $25 Regal Cinema, $110 Game Stop, $100 bill)

My kid got me the Supernatural Men of Letters Bestiary.

My wife was trying to decide if my behavior was that of a troll. I argued the major difference was that I actually believed what I post. As opposed to someone out there just looking to annoy others for the sheer entertainment of it.

Tons of people have been horrified by poverty...........doesn't seem to solve it, though. Does it? Apparently people are quite so horrified enough to actually cure it.

What did his dad spend their money on? Hookers and blow?

We just had Xmas with the fam yesterday. Spent about $50 on the meal and just enjoyed a few hours together. Spiral ham, YUM! The wife and I didn't even bother with gifts for each other........though we did finish a project of getting and assembling all new bar stools for our kitchen area.

[abbey1227]

Jan 2, 2023 21:52:10 GMT merh said:

Homeowners don't get bailed out?
Tax credits?
Disaster destroys the home & uncle Sam backs them out?

2,000 wrongs don't make a right.

Do you somehow figure I'm supportive of any of those things? That I feel the Govt has ANY business involving itself in charity like that?