Muhammad cartoons responsible for jihad terror

[papamihel]

“SPIEGEL: Deceased Mohammed cartoonist responsible for Islamic terror,” translated from “SPIEGEL: Verstorbener Mohammed-Karikaturist verantwortlich für islamischen Terror,” by Michael van Laack, Philosophia Perennis, July 19, 2021

Only good things should be reported about the deceased. Of course, this principle cannot always be adhered to. However, the way in which the “SPIEGEL” teaser yesterday presented the story of the impact of the Mohammed caricatures on the occasion of the death of Kurt Westergaard is as repugnant as it is typical of the general appeasement of German leading media outlets.



The publicist and lawyer Arnd Diringer aptly commented on Twitter: The riots with many dead and the attack on “Charlie Hebdo” are therefore the result of a few pictures and not the result of a murderous ideology and deeds of their followers.



Westergaard as the originator of all evil



It’s just something different whether you depict Christ as a pig on the cross or sell the piss-Christ dipped in urine as art or caricature the murderer, warmonger and child molester Mohammed. In the latter case, it is apparently understandable for mainstream media outlets such as SPIEGEL when the “believers” revolt and cut someone’s throat or shoot them or blow them up.



Islamic racism endangers “our” democracy



The non-Muslim has to show more sensitivity. When he knows how deeply he hurts noble Muslim hearts and yet taints the No. 1 religion of mercy with satire and caricature, the blood of the victims of the devout Muslims sticks to the hands of the provocative malefactor. If that doesn’t make sense, you are Islamophobic and a racist. And anyone who publicly contradicts this assessment is in all likelihood also a Nazi or worse.



For example, an old white and Christian fundamentalist who cannot bear justified criticism of his own religion – covered by artistic freedom – and who therefore behaves in a lack of solidarity with Muslims if they defend themselves with the necessary harshness against blasphemous writings and images.

philosophia-perennis.com/2021/07/19/spiegel-mohammed-europa/
www.spiegel.de/kultur/literatur/kurt-westergaard-ist-tot-zeichner-umstrittener-mohammed-karikatur-gestorben-a-2c1e5a12-7141-43cb-9bba-551c4e6efb4a?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=%5Bfacebook%5D&utm_campaign=%5Bspontop%5D#ref=rss

[Prometheus]

I've kicked a few asses in the past for saying shit about my mom.

I suppose some religious types might get upset about talking shit about their god.

Let me ask Pope Alexander II....

[papamihel]

Jul 22, 2021 17:00:03 GMT Prometheus said:

I've kicked a few asses in the past for saying shit about my mom.

I suppose some religious types might get upset about talking shit about their god.

Let me ask Pope Alexander II....

Is your mother a fictional character? Did she teach you to kill or enslave people who disagree with you? Have you?

[Prometheus]

Jul 23, 2021 3:23:14 GMT papamihel said:

Jul 22, 2021 17:00:03 GMT Prometheus said:

I've kicked a few asses in the past for saying shit about my mom.

I suppose some religious types might get upset about talking shit about their god.

Let me ask Pope Alexander II....

Is your mother a fictional character? Did she teach you to kill or enslave people who disagree with you? Have you?

She left all that shit up to god.

[papamihel]

Jul 23, 2021 3:48:31 GMT Prometheus said:

Jul 23, 2021 3:23:14 GMT papamihel said:

Is your mother a fictional character? Did she teach you to kill or enslave people who disagree with you? Have you?

She left all that shit up to god.

And that's why this was not a good analogy.

[Prometheus]

Jul 23, 2021 13:14:46 GMT papamihel said:

Jul 23, 2021 3:48:31 GMT Prometheus said:

She left all that shit up to god.

And that's why this was not a good analogy.

So, because my mom was real and god is not, an analogy referencing giving offense to something that someone might react violently about is off the table?

I did offer Pope Alexander II as well....

Maybe you'd rather talk about football hooliganism?

[papamihel]

Jul 24, 2021 1:28:25 GMT Prometheus said:

Jul 23, 2021 13:14:46 GMT papamihel said:

And that's why this was not a good analogy.

So, because my mom was real and god is not, an analogy referencing giving offense to something that someone might react violently about is off the table

Pretty much. Offending a real person causes them real harm/pain/negative emotions. Religious violence is like fans of Twilight attacking Stoker fundamentalists.

[Prometheus]

Jul 24, 2021 4:23:16 GMT papamihel said:

Jul 24, 2021 1:28:25 GMT Prometheus said:

So, because my mom was real and god is not, an analogy referencing giving offense to something that someone might react violently about is off the table

Pretty much. Offending a real person causes them real harm/pain/negative emotions. Religious violence is like fans of Twilight attacking Stoker fundamentalists.

So.... when Israel shoots a bunch of Palestinian kids, it's secular and "understandable" but if Palestinians kill people it's all just religious silliness?

That made things clear as mud.

[papamihel]

Jul 24, 2021 7:57:20 GMT Prometheus said:

Jul 24, 2021 4:23:16 GMT papamihel said:

Pretty much. Offending a real person causes them real harm/pain/negative emotions. Religious violence is like fans of Twilight attacking Stoker fundamentalists.

So.... when Israel shoots a bunch of Palestinian kids, it's secular and "understandable" but if Palestinians kill people it's all just religious silliness?

That made things clear as mud.

Israel does not aim to kill children. It's a modern country and our educational system is based on the same values as yours.

Before passing judgement try to consider a totally different society with different mentality and values and add to that the fact that for 100 years these Muslim clans have been constantly incited to violence against Jews as well as financially motivated to carry it out.

[Prometheus]

Jul 24, 2021 14:16:58 GMT papamihel said:

Jul 24, 2021 7:57:20 GMT Prometheus said:

So.... when Israel shoots a bunch of Palestinian kids, it's secular and "understandable" but if Palestinians kill people it's all just religious silliness?

That made things clear as mud.

Israel does not aim to kill children. It's a modern country and our educational system is based on the same values as yours.

Before passing judgement try to consider a totally different society with different mentality and values and add to that the fact that for 100 years these Muslim clans have been constantly incited to violence against Jews as well as financially motivated to carry it out.

Switch "Muslims" to "cops" and "Jews" to "minorities" and I think you'll see that our similar "values" have led to similar problems.

Maybe it's time for values to change....

[papamihel]

Jul 24, 2021 16:56:26 GMT Prometheus said:

Jul 24, 2021 14:16:58 GMT papamihel said:

Israel does not aim to kill children. It's a modern country and our educational system is based on the same values as yours.

Before passing judgement try to consider a totally different society with different mentality and values and add to that the fact that for 100 years these Muslim clans have been constantly incited to violence against Jews as well as financially motivated to carry it out.

Switch "Muslims" to "cops" and "Jews" to "minorities" and I think you'll see that our similar "values" have led to similar problems.

Well, here's the problem. You can't.
Unfortunately an average person living in a fairly normal developed country has next to zero idea about folks who are (for various reasons) stuck in the Middle\Bronze\Stone ages. So these analogies won't work. People are madly diverse culturally and often we are like aliens to one another.

And there's nothing wrong with our values. They are the cause you are living better than anyone anywhere and anytime in history of the world. You might want to consider being grateful. 

[Prometheus]

Jul 25, 2021 3:56:28 GMT papamihel said:

Jul 24, 2021 16:56:26 GMT Prometheus said:

Switch "Muslims" to "cops" and "Jews" to "minorities" and I think you'll see that our similar "values" have led to similar problems.

Well, here's the problem. You can't.
Unfortunately an average person living in a fairly normal developed country has next to zero idea about folks who are (for various reasons) stuck in the Middle\Bronze\Stone ages. So these analogies won't work. People are madly diverse culturally and often we are like aliens to one another.

And there's nothing wrong with our values. They are the cause you are living better than anyone anywhere and anytime in history of the world. You might want to consider being grateful. 

Being grateful for one thing doesn't mean I can't want the bad stuff to get better?

The way I figure it is that working to make the bad stuff better is why we "are living better than anyone anywhere and anytime in history of the world" right now.

Why would I want to stop making things better?

[papamihel]

Jul 25, 2021 9:34:12 GMT Prometheus said:

Jul 25, 2021 3:56:28 GMT papamihel said:

Well, here's the problem. You can't.
Unfortunately an average person living in a fairly normal developed country has next to zero idea about folks who are (for various reasons) stuck in the Middle\Bronze\Stone ages. So these analogies won't work. People are madly diverse culturally and often we are like aliens to one another.

And there's nothing wrong with our values. They are the cause you are living better than anyone anywhere and anytime in history of the world. You might want to consider being grateful. 

Being grateful for one thing doesn't mean I can't want the bad stuff to get better?

The way I figure it is that working to make the bad stuff better is why we "are living better than anyone anywhere and anytime in history of the world" right now.

Why would I want to stop making things better?

You are technically correct. Without improvement civilization will stagnate.
Two points I'd like to make:

1. You must know that when compared to the most of the rest of the world our "bad stuff" is mostly nothing but inconveniences.
2. Sadly many a political force proclaiming their intention to make things better go after the very things which made the West what it is. Namely individuality and personal responsibility.

[Prometheus]

Jul 25, 2021 13:22:39 GMT papamihel said:

Jul 25, 2021 9:34:12 GMT Prometheus said:

Being grateful for one thing doesn't mean I can't want the bad stuff to get better?

The way I figure it is that working to make the bad stuff better is why we "are living better than anyone anywhere and anytime in history of the world" right now.

Why would I want to stop making things better?

You are technically correct. Without improvement civilization will stagnate.
Two points I'd like to make:

1. You must know that when compared to the most of the rest of the world our "bad stuff" is mostly nothing but inconveniences.
2. Sadly many a political force proclaiming their intention to make things better go after the very things which made the West what it is. Namely individuality and personal responsibility.

1. But your inconveniences force other people to have inconveniences as well. Would you be OK with the US and EU withdrawing their support for Israel so that you can deal with your inconveniences on your own?

2. Individuality and personal responsibility. Like all those people you keep behind fences have?

This is where you start using words like "conform" and "assimilate," right?

Don't those words fly in the face of "individuality" and "personal responsibility"?

[abbey1227]

Jul 25, 2021 13:22:39 GMT papamihel said:

You are technically correct. Without improvement civilization will stagnate.
Two points I'd like to make:

1. You must know that when compared to the most of the rest of the world our "bad stuff" is mostly nothing but inconveniences.
2. Sadly many a political force proclaiming their intention to make things better go after the very things which made the West what it is. Namely individuality and personal responsibility.

And the places with the longest trends of those stated goals have some of the worst track records. But still somehow the denial of failure is so strong.

[papamihel]

Jul 26, 2021 4:52:48 GMT Prometheus said:

Jul 25, 2021 13:22:39 GMT papamihel said:

You are technically correct. Without improvement civilization will stagnate.
Two points I'd like to make:

1. You must know that when compared to the most of the rest of the world our "bad stuff" is mostly nothing but inconveniences.
2. Sadly many a political force proclaiming their intention to make things better go after the very things which made the West what it is. Namely individuality and personal responsibility.

1. But your inconveniences force other people to have inconveniences as well. Would you be OK with the US and EU withdrawing their support for Israel so that you can deal with your inconveniences on your own?

2. Individuality and personal responsibility. Like all those people you keep behind fences have?

This is where you start using words like "conform" and "assimilate," right?

Don't those words fly in the face of "individuality" and "personal responsibility"?

I got to say that these are pretty awkward attempts to bootstrap identity politics into this discussion.
First of all, I presumed that when you were talking about "bad things" in modern societies you meant things like "inequality", "racism" and so on. And all of them are pretty insignificant when compared to what goes on in the rest of the world.

But you wanna talk about Israel. Fine.
1. There is no EU support for Israel. Some of the members do make pro-Israeli noises but that's all. The EU is very much anti-Israeli. The US political support is also a fickle thing. All in all, I would prefer that people who have no stake in this game and no understanding of what the Middle-East is would leave us alone. We can figure things out with the local players.
Probably not with the current government though - they are fucking idiots.

2.  Individuality and personal responsibility. Like all those people you keep behind fences have?
You gonna have untangle this one for me.

And BTW we don't keep them behind fences. The fence is keeping them out. 

[abbey1227]

Jul 26, 2021 6:08:22 GMT papamihel said:

And BTW we don't keep them behind fences. The fence is keeping them out. 

And they don't seem to want to stay out.........they're using resources to dig tunnels in, as a matter of fact.

There's that 'Gates Theory' at play yet again.

[Prometheus]

Jul 26, 2021 6:08:22 GMT papamihel said:

Jul 26, 2021 4:52:48 GMT Prometheus said:

1. But your inconveniences force other people to have inconveniences as well. Would you be OK with the US and EU withdrawing their support for Israel so that you can deal with your inconveniences on your own?

2. Individuality and personal responsibility. Like all those people you keep behind fences have?

This is where you start using words like "conform" and "assimilate," right?

Don't those words fly in the face of "individuality" and "personal responsibility"?

I got to say that these are pretty awkward attempts to bootstrap identity politics into this discussion.
First of all, I presumed that when you were talking about "bad things" in modern societies you meant things like "inequality", "racism" and so on. And all of them are pretty insignificant when compared to what goes on in the rest of the world.

But you wanna talk about Israel. Fine.
1. There is no EU support for Israel. Some of the members do make pro-Israeli noises but that's all. The EU is very much anti-Israeli. The US political support is also a fickle thing. All in all, I would prefer that people who have no stake in this game and no understanding of what the Middle-East is would leave us alone. We can figure things out with the local players.
Probably not with the current government though - they are fucking idiots.

2.  Individuality and personal responsibility. Like all those people you keep behind fences have?
You gonna have untangle this one for me.

And BTW we don't keep them behind fences. The fence is keeping them out. 

Keeping the out of a place where their individuality is not wanted and where their personal responsibility is not trusted.

[papamihel]

Jul 27, 2021 4:08:03 GMT Prometheus said:

Jul 26, 2021 6:08:22 GMT papamihel said:

You gonna have untangle this one for me.

And BTW we don't keep them behind fences. The fence is keeping them out. 

Keeping the out of a place where their individuality is not wanted and where their personal responsibility is not trusted.

Yes. So?
First of all, you have to know that most human cultures are not hmmm.... Individualistic? The West is a fluke, an oddity. In terms of nature and evolution ours might not even be the best way but it is the only true path for self-aware thinking creatures. Because it gives you the maximum opportunities to live your life the best way you can. At least in theory.
You also have to know that most human cultures are lagging behind the 21st century - quite a few stuck in the Middle Ages and there are some which are still in the Bronze or even Stone age. Don't ask me why - I'm not an anthropologist.


All in all, there's not enough individuality among Muslim Arabs and the fact that their universe is firmly based on their clan\tribe makes their personal responsibility suspect.
Doesn't mean one can't successfully coexist with such cultures - just need to know who you are dealing with and act\talk accordingly. Our former PM clearly had the knack (hence the the Abraham Accords) and our current government... Not so much. They are planning to shut down the oil deal with the UAE.

[Prometheus]

Jul 27, 2021 5:27:55 GMT papamihel said:

Jul 27, 2021 4:08:03 GMT Prometheus said:

Keeping the out of a place where their individuality is not wanted and where their personal responsibility is not trusted.

Yes. So?
First of all, you have to know that most human cultures are not hmmm.... Individualistic? The West is a fluke, an oddity. In terms of nature and evolution ours might not even be the best way but it is the only true path for self-aware thinking creatures. Because it gives you the maximum opportunities to live your life the best way you can. At least in theory.
You also have to know that most human cultures are lagging behind the 21st century - quite a few stuck in the Middle Ages and there are some which are still in the Bronze or even Stone age. Don't ask me why - I'm not an anthropologist.


All in all, there's not enough individuality among Muslim Arabs and the fact that their universe is firmly based on their clan\tribe makes their personal responsibility suspect.
Doesn't mean one can't successfully coexist with such cultures - just need to know who you are dealing with and act\talk accordingly. Our former PM clearly had the knack (hence the the Abraham Accords) and our current government... Not so much. They are planning to shut down the oil deal with the UAE.

I know a loooot about cultures. I know you're not an anthropologist. I, OTOH....


Just because a culture hasn't evolved to a certain "level" doesn't mean that the human beings who make up that culture lack value.