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Post by Prometheus on Nov 18, 2022 0:05:22 GMT
I guess that first we would have to pick a time when America was previously "great and glorious," and that means identifying the attributes of a what a "great and glorious" nation look like.
Can these attributes co-exist?
Honestly... there has never been a time when America was "great and glorious" in the opinions of all of its citizens, therefore the sentiment of doing it "again" is somewhat idiotic... no matter which side says it.
That means that what we should be looking for is a way to make America "great and glorious" for the first time in its history. THAT seems like a worthwhile endeavor. The problem is that you could never get the "left" and "right" to agree on the color of shit, let alone what would make America "great and glorious."
But I'm willing to make a list and see if there are some things that could be agreeable to both sides.
Give it to me.
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Post by permutojoe on Nov 18, 2022 0:42:20 GMT
Not sure we were ever all that great. The Constitution is praised as being great, and I guess in comparison to other shit that came before, it was. But in reality it was a way for a relatively few rich white men to make sure they would never have their land or money taken away from them by those higher up the ladder. That's it.
True greatness lies in that evil D word that the right hates. Democracy. The more of it you have, the better off you'll be. It's that simple.
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Post by Prometheus on Nov 18, 2022 4:28:13 GMT
Not sure we were ever all that great. The Constitution is praised as being great, and I guess in comparison to other shit that came before, it was. But in reality it was a way for a relatively few rich white men to make sure they would never have their land or money taken away from them by those higher up the ladder. That's it. True greatness lies in that evil D word that the right hates. Democracy. The more of it you have, the better off you'll be. It's that simple. Did you read what I wrote? |
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Post by permutojoe on Nov 18, 2022 14:48:48 GMT
Not sure we were ever all that great. The Constitution is praised as being great, and I guess in comparison to other shit that came before, it was. But in reality it was a way for a relatively few rich white men to make sure they would never have their land or money taken away from them by those higher up the ladder. That's it. True greatness lies in that evil D word that the right hates. Democracy. The more of it you have, the better off you'll be. It's that simple. Did you read what I wrote? Make a list of great and glorious. Put me down for some big D. Hey wait a minute.... |
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Post by Prometheus on Nov 18, 2022 23:46:09 GMT
Did you read what I wrote? Make a list of great and glorious. Put me down for some big D. Hey wait a minute.... Are you saying that the US doesn't have any democracy and never has? |
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Post by permutojoe on Nov 19, 2022 17:27:42 GMT
Make a list of great and glorious. Put me down for some big D. Hey wait a minute.... Are you saying that the US doesn't have any democracy and never has? No. Are you? |
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Post by Prometheus on Nov 19, 2022 23:01:28 GMT
Are you saying that the US doesn't have any democracy and never has? No. Are you? The proposition was that America has never been "great and Glorious." The question was, "What would make America 'Great and Glorious,'" and your answer seems to be, "democracy," which would suggest that you think that democracy has never existed in the US or that its form is insufficient in some way.
Could you elaborate, please?
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Post by permutojoe on Nov 20, 2022 3:14:34 GMT
The proposition was that America has never been "great and Glorious." The question was, "What would make America 'Great and Glorious,'" and your answer seems to be, "democracy," which would suggest that you think that democracy has never existed in the US or that its form is insufficient in some way.
Could you elaborate, please?
See above about more big D. |
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Post by Prometheus on Nov 20, 2022 7:41:53 GMT
The proposition was that America has never been "great and Glorious." The question was, "What would make America 'Great and Glorious,'" and your answer seems to be, "democracy," which would suggest that you think that democracy has never existed in the US or that its form is insufficient in some way.
Could you elaborate, please?
See above about more big D. You're as bad as Abbey sometimes. Say what you fucking mean. What does "More democracy" look like in your eyes?
I feel like a dentist digging out 32 impacted wisdom teeth....
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Post by permutojoe on Nov 20, 2022 13:25:02 GMT
See above about more big D. You're as bad as Abbey sometimes. Say what you fucking mean. What does "More democracy" look like in your eyes?
I feel like a dentist digging out 32 impacted wisdom teeth....
Anything that returns/increases democracy. Overturn Citizens United, i.e. campaign finance reform. Co-ops instead of corporations. Some type of parliament/proportional representation in Congress. Power elites never want democracy because it's a threat to their power, which is why the founders were always wary of it. The old "2 wolves and a sheep" meme. But now we have a few hundred wolves and a few hundred million sheep. Which is worse? And as long as the mechanisms of a high-democracy system are not able to be tinkered with in favor of the more affluent like our system is now, if power swings too far one way in an actual democratic state, it will swing back soon enough before getting out of hand. |
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Post by abbey1227 on Nov 20, 2022 13:28:39 GMT
You're as bad as Abbey sometimes. Say what you fucking mean. What does "More democracy" look like in your eyes?
I feel like a dentist digging out 32 impacted wisdom teeth....
Anything that returns/increases democracy. Overturn Citizens United, i.e. campaign finance reform. Co-ops instead of corporations. Some type of parliament/proportional representation in Congress. Power elites never want democracy because it's a threat to their power, which is why the founders were always wary of it. The old "2 wolves and a sheep" meme. But now we have a few hundred wolves and a few hundred million sheep. Which is worse? And as long as the mechanisms of a high-democracy system are not able to be tinkered with in favor of the more affluent like our system is now, if power swings too far one way in an actual democratic state, it will swing back soon enough before getting out of hand.
You know what else they were wary of? Abusive and overbearing Government.
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Post by permutojoe on Nov 20, 2022 13:51:16 GMT
Anything that returns/increases democracy. Overturn Citizens United, i.e. campaign finance reform. Co-ops instead of corporations. Some type of parliament/proportional representation in Congress. Power elites never want democracy because it's a threat to their power, which is why the founders were always wary of it. The old "2 wolves and a sheep" meme. But now we have a few hundred wolves and a few hundred million sheep. Which is worse? And as long as the mechanisms of a high-democracy system are not able to be tinkered with in favor of the more affluent like our system is now, if power swings too far one way in an actual democratic state, it will swing back soon enough before getting out of hand.
You know what else they were wary of? Abusive and overbearing Government.
They wanted to keep what they had and have a chance to accumulate more. Everything else was just the fine print. Democracy is the only way. Everything else leads to totalitarianism, especially libertarianism which promotes a power vacuum but doesn't really consider who's going to step in and seize that power. |
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Post by abbey1227 on Nov 20, 2022 14:03:41 GMT
They wanted to keep what they had and have a chance to accumulate more. Everything else was just the fine print. Democracy is the only way. Everything else leads to totalitarianism, especially libertarianism which promotes a power vacuum but doesn't really consider who's going to step in and seize that power.
Yet they created a country/place where just about anyone could succeed. The entire world's GDP has grown since the US was founded.
Democracy is 3 wolves and 1 sheep voting on what's for dinner. Or in more recent times.........3 Marxists and 1 Capitalist voting on how high taxes should be and how much Govt should spend.
It's a circle, dude. Once the democracy leads to Govt providing tax payer largesse to the masses it's just a matter of time til it devolves naturally into another totalitarian state......socialism into communism. Which are responsible for the largest amount of graves the world has ever experienced. Don't even bother with the 'But they didn't do it right that time."
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Post by permutojoe on Nov 20, 2022 14:10:43 GMT
They wanted to keep what they had and have a chance to accumulate more. Everything else was just the fine print. Democracy is the only way. Everything else leads to totalitarianism, especially libertarianism which promotes a power vacuum but doesn't really consider who's going to step in and seize that power.
Yet they created a country/place where just about anyone could succeed. The entire world's GDP has grown since the US was founded.
Democracy is 3 wolves and 1 sheep voting on what's for dinner. Or in more recent times.........3 Marxists and 1 Capitalist voting on how high taxes should be and how much Govt should spend.
It's a circle, dude. Once the democracy leads to Govt providing tax payer largesse to the masses it's just a matter of time til it devolves naturally into another totalitarian state......socialism into communism. Which are responsible for the largest amount of graves the world has ever experienced. Don't even bother with the 'But they didn't do it right that time."
We've discussed all this before. You're wrong about everything. Go make another thread if you want and I'll join. Not going to help you hijack this one though. |
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Post by Prometheus on Nov 21, 2022 1:12:53 GMT
You're as bad as Abbey sometimes. Say what you fucking mean. What does "More democracy" look like in your eyes?
I feel like a dentist digging out 32 impacted wisdom teeth....
Anything that returns/increases democracy. Overturn Citizens United, i.e. campaign finance reform. Co-ops instead of corporations. Some type of parliament/proportional representation in Congress. Power elites never want democracy because it's a threat to their power, which is why the founders were always wary of it. The old "2 wolves and a sheep" meme. But now we have a few hundred wolves and a few hundred million sheep. Which is worse? And as long as the mechanisms of a high-democracy system are not able to be tinkered with in favor of the more affluent like our system is now, if power swings too far one way in an actual democratic state, it will swing back soon enough before getting out of hand. Thank you. Was it so hard to say what you mean?
You could have been talking about unstructured, direct democracy for all I knew.
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Post by xeliou66 on Nov 21, 2022 2:03:02 GMT
I don’t know if America was ever truly great, but the best way to make America better would through massive reforms and changes in policies - wealth inequality should be a major issue, if we cut out all of the tax loopholes and schemes that big businesses and the wealthy use to avoid paying their fair share, if we broke up the big corporations, if we invested more in infrastructure, gave everyone healthcare, gave workers more rights and power, and invested in public education and cut off funding for private schools, America would be much better. Also end the bloated military budget and stop the endless wars and put our own people first, and overturn Citizens United either through court rulings or a constitutional amendment to ban unlimited donations and ban corporations from funding politicians, and reformed our justice system so that police focused on stopping and solving violent crime instead of locking up people for drug possession, and ban the use or private prisons, these policies would greatly improve America.
I think America has gotten better in many ways, such as having more equality and less discrimination, but also worse recently in the increased concentration of wealth and increased corporate power, plus the backwards religious nuts trying to take away the progress we’ve made for women’s rights and gay rights. It remains to be seen whether America will get better or worse going forward.
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Post by merh on Nov 21, 2022 20:02:46 GMT
I don’t know if America was ever truly great, but the best way to make America better would through massive reforms and changes in policies - wealth inequality should be a major issue, if we cut out all of the tax loopholes and schemes that big businesses and the wealthy use to avoid paying their fair share, if we broke up the big corporations, if we invested more in infrastructure, gave everyone healthcare, gave workers more rights and power, and invested in public education and cut off funding for private schools, America would be much better. Also end the bloated military budget and stop the endless wars and put our own people first, and overturn Citizens United either through court rulings or a constitutional amendment to ban unlimited donations and ban corporations from funding politicians, and reformed our justice system so that police focused on stopping and solving violent crime instead of locking up people for drug possession, and ban the use or private prisons, these policies would greatly improve America. I think America has gotten better in many ways, such as having more equality and less discrimination, but also worse recently in the increased concentration of wealth and increased corporate power, plus the backwards religious nuts trying to take away the progress we’ve made for women’s rights and gay rights. It remains to be seen whether America will get better or worse going forward. Hey, dude, how's it going? I think America can do well. When one sees how other countries deal with things like multiculturalism & such, I believe even though we stumble, we do better than a lot of other places. But sure, we do a lot bad. I swear we are back to robber barons practically. |
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Post by xeliou66 on Nov 21, 2022 21:21:35 GMT
I don’t know if America was ever truly great, but the best way to make America better would through massive reforms and changes in policies - wealth inequality should be a major issue, if we cut out all of the tax loopholes and schemes that big businesses and the wealthy use to avoid paying their fair share, if we broke up the big corporations, if we invested more in infrastructure, gave everyone healthcare, gave workers more rights and power, and invested in public education and cut off funding for private schools, America would be much better. Also end the bloated military budget and stop the endless wars and put our own people first, and overturn Citizens United either through court rulings or a constitutional amendment to ban unlimited donations and ban corporations from funding politicians, and reformed our justice system so that police focused on stopping and solving violent crime instead of locking up people for drug possession, and ban the use or private prisons, these policies would greatly improve America. I think America has gotten better in many ways, such as having more equality and less discrimination, but also worse recently in the increased concentration of wealth and increased corporate power, plus the backwards religious nuts trying to take away the progress we’ve made for women’s rights and gay rights. It remains to be seen whether America will get better or worse going forward. Hey, dude, how's it going? I think America can do well. When one sees how other countries deal with things like multiculturalism & such, I believe even though we stumble, we do better than a lot of other places. But sure, we do a lot bad. I swear we are back to robber barons practically. Things are going okay for me, thanks for asking. I agree America does some things very well, and I think America has a better record on most things than most countries, but there’s still many, many ways we can improve America and do a lot better - and the extreme wealth inequality, extreme corporate power and concentration of power/wealth, and the endless wars and ridiculous military budget are some of my main concerns for America. |
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Post by merh on Nov 21, 2022 23:12:47 GMT
Hey, dude, how's it going? I think America can do well. When one sees how other countries deal with things like multiculturalism & such, I believe even though we stumble, we do better than a lot of other places. But sure, we do a lot bad. I swear we are back to robber barons practically. Things are going okay for me, thanks for asking. I agree America does some things very well, and I think America has a better record on most things than most countries, but there’s still many, many ways we can improve America and do a lot better - and the extreme wealth inequality, extreme corporate power and concentration of power/wealth, and the endless wars and ridiculous military budget are some of my main concerns for America. Which I don't get about conservatives who think liberals can't love America because we want her to be better. I love California. I was born here. I love America. It's my home. I think both can improve so I can hope for better. |
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Post by abbey1227 on Nov 22, 2022 2:12:41 GMT
Things are going okay for me, thanks for asking. I agree America does some things very well, and I think America has a better record on most things than most countries, but there’s still many, many ways we can improve America and do a lot better - and the extreme wealth inequality, extreme corporate power and concentration of power/wealth, and the endless wars and ridiculous military budget are some of my main concerns for America.
If only we had votes on those, huh?
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