Voter IDs

[Prometheus]

I don't want to speak about any specific laws where the wording is obviously trying to keep certain demographics from voting when they absolutely should be allowed to... just yet. First, I'd like to discuss the concept in and of itself.

At its core, the idea is sound... and desirable. We should absolutely want to make sure that the people coming into the polling station are legally entitled to cast a vote and that they are voting in the right district/ward/what-have-you. That seems like a no-brainer to me. We don't want non-citizens voting whether it be by hacking or by just walking in and pulling the lever, do we?

Now, the first big argument about voter IDs (even if the requirement has no other nefarious wording) is that certain segments of the population don't have the means to pay for certified copies of birth certificates needed to get the ID, pay for the ID itself, or even travel to the locations to get the IDs.

How many millions of dollars have been spent fighting these laws? 10's of millions? Hundreds? Couldn't that money just has easily been spent on helping the indigent pay for their IDs and travel to whatever locations are needed? Shit, if I were back home, I'd have no problem taking a day off to shuttle some people around and even pay for their paperwork. It's not as easy as sending money to some action group then screaming on the internet, but I figure that if people can find time to protest, they can find time to actually help.

As for that nefarious wording... go get yourself some robo-call software, plug in the phone numbers of your local reps and senators and let them know how you feel... every 15 minutes. It sure as hell beats exposing yourself to Covid by protesting in the streets....

[abbey1227]

Mar 28, 2021 1:32:41 GMT Prometheus said:

I don't want to speak about any specific laws where the wording is obviously trying to keep certain demographics from voting when they absolutely should be allowed to... just yet. First, I'd like to discuss the concept in and of itself.

At its core, the idea is sound... and desirable. We should absolutely want to make sure that the people coming into the polling station are legally entitled to cast a vote and that they are voting in the right district/ward/what-have-you. That seems like a no-brainer to me. We don't want non-citizens voting whether it be by hacking or by just walking in and pulling the lever, do we?

Now, the first big argument about voter IDs (even if the requirement has no other nefarious wording) is that certain segments of the population don't have the means to pay for certified copies of birth certificates needed to get the ID, pay for the ID itself, or even travel to the locations to get the IDs.

How many millions of dollars have been spent fighting these laws? 10's of millions? Hundreds? Couldn't that money just has easily been spent on helping the indigent pay for their IDs and travel to whatever locations are needed? Shit, if I were back home, I'd have no problem taking a day off to shuttle some people around and even pay for their paperwork. It's not as easy as sending money to some action group then screaming on the internet, but I figure that if people can find time to protest, they can find time to actually help.

As for that nefarious wording... go get yourself some robo-call software, plug in the phone numbers of your local reps and senators and let them know how you feel... every 15 minutes. It sure as hell beats exposing yourself to Covid by protesting in the streets....

The professional 'spinners' of today have the ability to skew the argument no matter the hypocrisy.

This is how they can fervently insist on Covid passports.........while dismissing the need for IDs to vote. 

[Prometheus]

Apr 4, 2021 2:27:27 GMT abbey1227 said:

Mar 28, 2021 1:32:41 GMT Prometheus said:

I don't want to speak about any specific laws where the wording is obviously trying to keep certain demographics from voting when they absolutely should be allowed to... just yet. First, I'd like to discuss the concept in and of itself.

At its core, the idea is sound... and desirable. We should absolutely want to make sure that the people coming into the polling station are legally entitled to cast a vote and that they are voting in the right district/ward/what-have-you. That seems like a no-brainer to me. We don't want non-citizens voting whether it be by hacking or by just walking in and pulling the lever, do we?

Now, the first big argument about voter IDs (even if the requirement has no other nefarious wording) is that certain segments of the population don't have the means to pay for certified copies of birth certificates needed to get the ID, pay for the ID itself, or even travel to the locations to get the IDs.

How many millions of dollars have been spent fighting these laws? 10's of millions? Hundreds? Couldn't that money just has easily been spent on helping the indigent pay for their IDs and travel to whatever locations are needed? Shit, if I were back home, I'd have no problem taking a day off to shuttle some people around and even pay for their paperwork. It's not as easy as sending money to some action group then screaming on the internet, but I figure that if people can find time to protest, they can find time to actually help.

As for that nefarious wording... go get yourself some robo-call software, plug in the phone numbers of your local reps and senators and let them know how you feel... every 15 minutes. It sure as hell beats exposing yourself to Covid by protesting in the streets....

The professional 'spinners' of today have the ability to skew the argument no matter the hypocrisy.

This is how they can fervently insist on Covid passports.........while dismissing the need for IDs to vote. 

Excellent point.

Edited to add:

Here, in China, we've been using a similar system for about a year utilizing an app on our smart phones. You don't need to use it everywhere - very rarely in fact - but it's barely an inconvenience when you do.

[abbey1227]

Apr 4, 2021 2:49:08 GMT Prometheus said:

Excellent point.

Edited to add:

Here, in China, we've been using a similar system for about a year utilizing an app on our smart phones. You don't need to use it everywhere - very rarely in fact - but it's barely an inconvenience when you do.

let's just get it over with already and install the chips. 

[Prometheus]

Apr 4, 2021 12:30:59 GMT abbey1227 said:

Apr 4, 2021 2:49:08 GMT Prometheus said:

Excellent point.

Edited to add:

Here, in China, we've been using a similar system for about a year utilizing an app on our smart phones. You don't need to use it everywhere - very rarely in fact - but it's barely an inconvenience when you do.

let's just get it over with already and install the chips. 

Why?

You have GPS on your phone.

You make purchases with credit/debit cards/paypal

There are tax records, utility bills, your driver's license, traffic cameras, security cameras, and if your dog is "chipped" and licensed to you....

In the end, if you're OK with making sure that a person has the right to vote, you should be OK with the idea that (for the time being) they are free from a deadly disease in public and privately-owned areas.

And the reverse is also true: if you are against making sure people are free from a deadly disease then you can't really advocate for other forms of universal identification.

You can't have one foot on the platform, one on the train, and question why the train can't leave the station.

[abbey1227]

Apr 5, 2021 0:24:17 GMT Prometheus said:

Why?

You have GPS on your phone.

You make purchases with credit/debit cards/paypal

There are tax records, utility bills, your driver's license, traffic cameras, security cameras, and if your dog is "chipped" and licensed to you....

In the end, if you're OK with making sure that a person has the right to vote, you should be OK with the idea that (for the time being) they are free from a deadly disease in public and privately-owned areas.

And the reverse is also true: if you are against making sure people are free from a deadly disease then you can't really advocate for other forms of universal identification.

You can't have one foot on the platform, one on the train, and question why the train can't leave the station.

I gave up my phone months ago...... my olde flip phone. 

I do paypal, true.........not so much with debit, believe it or not

I'm totally with you....... I actually contend the large Federal Govt actually has a ton more evidence of actual crimes and murders, but they don't want to reveal how much surveillance they actually already have.

I used to believe more strongly in freedoms........but as mine have been undermined repeatedly, I've started to think the Founders may have made a mistake by not sticking with "Property Owners ONLY' rule. 

To run the risk of being banished from this site......... I see NO evidence of a truly deadly disease. Covid is a bad and possibly more contagious virus, yes. But deadly? For most people? Not a chance. Not by the math/science.

I think it comes down to the fundamental difference in peoples' views of Govt. I see it as a necessary EVIL that should remain as small and unintrusive as possible. Whereas the big govt lovers see it as the means to have their every want and wish fulfilled........at other peoples' expense, of course.

THAT has become too wide a gap to navigate these days.

[Nightman]

The main problem with the suggestion in the op is that it then puts the right-wingers suppressing voters in the position to profit from the people they are oppressing. That is too sickening.

Personally, I think the controversy surrounding voter id is designed to distract from other, more effective voter suppression methods. Voter roll purges, closing voting locations, limiting voting hours, cutting early voting, refusal to either move voting day to a more logical day that allows for workers to access the polls. Those don't get nearly as much press, yet are completely indefensible.

[Prometheus]

Apr 5, 2021 22:02:42 GMT Nightman said:

The main problem with the suggestion in the op is that it then puts the right-wingers suppressing voters in the position to profit from the people they are oppressing. That is too sickening.

Personally, I think the controversy surrounding voter id is designed to distract from other, more effective voter suppression methods. Voter roll purges, closing voting locations, limiting voting hours, cutting early voting, refusal to either move voting day to a more logical day that allows for workers to access the polls. Those don't get nearly as much press, yet are completely indefensible.

I'm lost.

How does the right profit when everyone has to have ID?

If I moved back to the States tomorrow, I'd have no ID except my passport. If I wanted something slightly more portable, I'd have to travel by taxi to whatever location to get a state ID. I'd then have to take a taxi to register to vote in my new location. And on voting day, I'd have to take a taxi to the polls.

Are all taxi companies Republican-owned?

As for the other voter suppression methods, concerns about them are valid, but not the topic of my post. They are the "nefarious language" which has been set aside to discuss the necessity or non-necessity of requiring an ID in order to ensure the person entering the polls is entitled to vote and that they are in the correct location to do so.

[Prometheus]

Apr 5, 2021 3:00:03 GMT abbey1227 said:

Apr 5, 2021 0:24:17 GMT Prometheus said:

Why?

You have GPS on your phone.

You make purchases with credit/debit cards/paypal

There are tax records, utility bills, your driver's license, traffic cameras, security cameras, and if your dog is "chipped" and licensed to you....

In the end, if you're OK with making sure that a person has the right to vote, you should be OK with the idea that (for the time being) they are free from a deadly disease in public and privately-owned areas.

And the reverse is also true: if you are against making sure people are free from a deadly disease then you can't really advocate for other forms of universal identification.

You can't have one foot on the platform, one on the train, and question why the train can't leave the station.

I gave up my phone months ago...... my olde flip phone. 

I do paypal, true.........not so much with debit, believe it or not

I'm totally with you....... I actually contend the large Federal Govt actually has a ton more evidence of actual crimes and murders, but they don't want to reveal how much surveillance they actually already have.

I used to believe more strongly in freedoms........but as mine have been undermined repeatedly, I've started to think the Founders may have made a mistake by not sticking with "Property Owners ONLY' rule. 

To run the risk of being banished from this site......... I see NO evidence of a truly deadly disease. Covid is a bad and possibly more contagious virus, yes. But deadly? For most people? Not a chance. Not by the math/science.

I think it comes down to the fundamental difference in peoples' views of Govt. I see it as a necessary EVIL that should remain as small and unintrusive as possible. Whereas the big govt lovers see it as the means to have their every want and wish fulfilled........at other peoples' expense, of course.

THAT has become too wide a gap to navigate these days.

People aren't banished for having an opinion. They are banished for being trolls.

Do you think heart disease is deadly? It's the number one killer for both men and women every year. Science and math tell us that the number of deaths caused by heart disease every year is about 610,000. From the first death due to Covid to one year later, about 529,000 people had died from the disease. That seems "Deadly" to me.

Of course - and I'm just guessing - you're going to say that a 2% infection rate coupled with a 2% mortality rate is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. That's just 0.04% of the world's population. No big deal, right?

Of course, then you have to do the math the other way. 0.04% of the population of the US is about 132,400 people. THAT is the number of dead Americans that we should be talking about right now instead of numbers pushing toward the 600,000 mark.

As for "small government"... I, too, would like for it to be less intrusive and more efficient, but I do believe that the government has a duty to protect ALL of the people under its jurisdiction from invaders large and small. This of course brings us back to education: people need less protection from the "small invaders" such as Covid when they educated about disease prevention.

Imagine it's 2028 (my guess for the next pandemic) and Americans hear on the news about an epidemic in... Thailand . These well-educated Americans, knowing that airplanes exist, go to their medicine cabinets, grab a mask, drop a small bottle of hand sanitizer into their pocket, and go on about their lives, automatically keeping a distance of 6 feet (where possible) between each other. Nothing shuts down and the death toll is in the dozens or less while countries with a less-educated populace are ravaged.

You don't need laws to control people if they already know how to control themselves.

Hell. If people just practiced these concepts every cold and flu season, there would be fewer health problems for everybody every year. UHC wouldn't cost so much if people didn't need it.

[abbey1227]

Apr 6, 2021 4:34:19 GMT Prometheus said:

People aren't banished for having an opinion. They are banished for being trolls.

Do you think heart disease is deadly? It's the number one killer for both men and women every year. Science and math tell us that the number of deaths caused by heart disease every year is about 610,000. From the first death due to Covid to one year later, about 529,000 people had died from the disease. That seems "Deadly" to me.

Of course - and I'm just guessing - you're going to say that a 2% infection rate coupled with a 2% mortality rate is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. That's just 0.04% of the world's population. No big deal, right?

Of course, then you have to do the math the other way. 0.04% of the population of the US is about 132,400 people. THAT is the number of dead Americans that we should be talking about right now instead of numbers pushing toward the 600,000 mark.

As for "small government"... I, too, would like for it to be less intrusive and more efficient, but I do believe that the government has a duty to protect ALL of the people under its jurisdiction from invaders large and small. This of course brings us back to education: people need less protection from the "small invaders" such as Covid when they educated about disease prevention.

Imagine it's 2028 (my guess for the next pandemic) and Americans hear on the news about an epidemic in... Thailand . These well-educated Americans, knowing that airplanes exist, go to their medicine cabinets, grab a mask, drop a small bottle of hand sanitizer into their pocket, and go on about their lives, automatically keeping a distance of 6 feet (where possible) between each other. Nothing shuts down and the death toll is in the dozens or less while countries with a less-educated populace are ravaged.

You don't need laws to control people if they already know how to control themselves.

Hell. If people just practiced these concepts every cold and flu season, there would be fewer health problems for everybody every year. UHC wouldn't cost so much if people didn't need it.

I've been accused of being a troll......amongst other things.

But we haven't banned all the fast food joints and junk food, have we? Why not? If it'd save just one life......isn't that the usual nonsense?

Let me know when the human pop dips below..........let's say 5 Billion for starters. Then we, as a species, might find cause to be worried.

Weird how almost nobody has just plain died in the last 14 months. It's all checked box Covid. Big $Money in that.

I'm not sure how you figure you can educate enough? While people are still imbibing all that junk food, alcohol, tobacco and getting up to so many other self-destructive things.

It's clear to me we'd have been better off with a short break to gather our wits (what little there is overall) and then got on with getting to herd immunity as quick as possible for everyone under 65 and not otherwise vulnerable. Within a month or two we'd be exactly where we are now. And the country wouldn't have had to give up so much in the meantime.

You're still the optimist......2028 is a long way off.

That's just it, E......... they don't control themselves........at least, a small steady percentage anyway. Criminals/Idiots/Dependents....... it's just what they do. You have seen the muder stats recently? How the F are numbers up, much less that much?.....if the country has been locked down? Because criminals do what they do.

Oh, I totally agree.........seceral Asian countries have been ahead of the curve for years on that. Whether it's the pollution, or the population density/flu prevention.........they do get along in larger groups better than anyone, at least according to Reggie White, if I'm not mistaken.     But that ain't Americans.......and it sure isn't the droves illegally invading the US.

EXCELLENT point.   I was just mentioning to someone how we visited a casino in Baton Rouge a few years back and I noticed all of the unhealthy people about.........since then I've heard about just how unhealthy Americans are overall. How the heck is UHC ever going to work here? Where we waste more tax money than anyone else. And our govt drives up the bureaucracy and costs more than anyone has ever seen? If it was more of a co-op situation with people volunteering and working together? Maybe it'd have a shot. But this group of people? I predict abject failure.

[Prometheus]

Apr 6, 2021 5:10:11 GMT abbey1227 said:

Apr 6, 2021 4:34:19 GMT Prometheus said:

People aren't banished for having an opinion. They are banished for being trolls.

Do you think heart disease is deadly? It's the number one killer for both men and women every year. Science and math tell us that the number of deaths caused by heart disease every year is about 610,000. From the first death due to Covid to one year later, about 529,000 people had died from the disease. That seems "Deadly" to me.

Of course - and I'm just guessing - you're going to say that a 2% infection rate coupled with a 2% mortality rate is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. That's just 0.04% of the world's population. No big deal, right?

Of course, then you have to do the math the other way. 0.04% of the population of the US is about 132,400 people. THAT is the number of dead Americans that we should be talking about right now instead of numbers pushing toward the 600,000 mark.

As for "small government"... I, too, would like for it to be less intrusive and more efficient, but I do believe that the government has a duty to protect ALL of the people under its jurisdiction from invaders large and small. This of course brings us back to education: people need less protection from the "small invaders" such as Covid when they educated about disease prevention.

Imagine it's 2028 (my guess for the next pandemic) and Americans hear on the news about an epidemic in... Thailand . These well-educated Americans, knowing that airplanes exist, go to their medicine cabinets, grab a mask, drop a small bottle of hand sanitizer into their pocket, and go on about their lives, automatically keeping a distance of 6 feet (where possible) between each other. Nothing shuts down and the death toll is in the dozens or less while countries with a less-educated populace are ravaged.

You don't need laws to control people if they already know how to control themselves.

Hell. If people just practiced these concepts every cold and flu season, there would be fewer health problems for everybody every year. UHC wouldn't cost so much if people didn't need it.

I've been accused of being a troll......amongst other things.

But we haven't banned all the fast food joints and junk food, have we? Why not? If it'd save just one life......isn't that the usual nonsense?

Let me know when the human pop dips below..........let's say 5 Billion for starters. Then we, as a species, might find cause to be worried.

Weird how almost nobody has just plain died in the last 14 months. It's all checked box Covid. Big $Money in that.

I'm not sure how you figure you can educate enough? While people are still imbibing all that junk food, alcohol, tobacco and getting up to so many other self-destructive things.

It's clear to me we'd have been better off with a short break to gather our wits (what little there is overall) and then got on with getting to herd immunity as quick as possible for everyone under 65 and not otherwise vulnerable. Within a month or two we'd be exactly where we are now. And the country wouldn't have had to give up so much in the meantime.

You're still the optimist......2028 is a long way off.

That's just it, E......... they don't control themselves........at least, a small steady percentage anyway. Criminals/Idiots/Dependents....... it's just what they do. You have seen the muder stats recently? How the F are numbers up, much less that much?.....if the country has been locked down? Because criminals do what they do.

Oh, I totally agree.........seceral Asian countries have been ahead of the curve for years on that. Whether it's the pollution, or the population density/flu prevention.........they do get along in larger groups better than anyone, at least according to Reggie White, if I'm not mistaken.     But that ain't Americans.......and it sure isn't the droves illegally invading the US.

EXCELLENT point.   I was just mentioning to someone how we visited a casino in Baton Rouge a few years back and I noticed all of the unhealthy people about.........since then I've heard about just how unhealthy Americans are overall. How the heck is UHC ever going to work here? Where we waste more tax money than anyone else. And our govt drives up the bureaucracy and costs more than anyone has ever seen? If it was more of a co-op situation with people volunteering and working together? Maybe it'd have a shot. But this group of people? I predict abject failure.

I don't think you understand how herd immunity works. Here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

As for the rest, I stand by my assertion that a well-educated populace would be healthier and require less governmental intrusion... even if they did scarf down a Big Mac once in a while.

As for UHC, the US already spends about $10,000 a year per person on healthcare. Every other country with UHC spends around $5,000 or less. I'd say that reducing our spending by half would be a good thing even if it took a few years to achieve. And think of the economic benefits to the individuals in the meantime: no co-pays; no deductibles; no insurance premiums. Hell. Even if all those costs got subsumed by a new tax, you'd still be breaking even in the short-term and probably gaining benefit in the long-term.

[abbey1227]

Apr 6, 2021 5:54:20 GMT Prometheus said:

I don't think you understand how herd immunity works. Here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

As for the rest, I stand by my assertion that a well-educated populace would be healthier and require less governmental intrusion... even if they did scarf down a Big Mac once in a while.

As for UHC, the US already spends about $10,000 a year per person on healthcare. Every other country with UHC spends around $5,000 or less. I'd say that reducing our spending by half would be a good thing even if it took a few years to achieve. And think of the economic benefits to the individuals in the meantime: no co-pays; no deductibles; no insurance premiums. Hell. Even if all those costs got subsumed by a new tax, you'd still be breaking even in the short-term and probably gaining benefit in the long-term.

Didn't you have chicken pox parties when you were younger? Were we the last of that era?

No doubt....... informed is better, of course. Then there's the dicey situation of giving people actual freedoms. Though that guy that ate all those Big Macs seemed like a pretty slender dude. Moderation in all things?

Again, no doubt......but I don't see the Govt that spent $600/hammer or toilet seat to be the one to look to that'll somehow reduce the costs of healthcare. Maybe after they fogive student loans, they can just forgive all medical expenses, too?

I'm not totally opposed to UHC, I just feel it should be proven and sustainable......... that means asking Americans to scrimp and plan ahead.......and they're mostly too undisciplined to ever agree.     so use Govt force yet again?

[Prometheus]

Apr 6, 2021 6:02:37 GMT abbey1227 said:

Apr 6, 2021 5:54:20 GMT Prometheus said:

I don't think you understand how herd immunity works. Here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

As for the rest, I stand by my assertion that a well-educated populace would be healthier and require less governmental intrusion... even if they did scarf down a Big Mac once in a while.

As for UHC, the US already spends about $10,000 a year per person on healthcare. Every other country with UHC spends around $5,000 or less. I'd say that reducing our spending by half would be a good thing even if it took a few years to achieve. And think of the economic benefits to the individuals in the meantime: no co-pays; no deductibles; no insurance premiums. Hell. Even if all those costs got subsumed by a new tax, you'd still be breaking even in the short-term and probably gaining benefit in the long-term.

Didn't you have chicken pox parties when you were younger? Were we the last of that era?

No doubt....... informed is better, of course. Then there's the dicey situation of giving people actual freedoms. Though that guy that ate all those Big Macs seemed like a pretty slender dude. Moderation in all things?

Again, no doubt......but I don't see the Govt that spent $600/hammer or toilet seat to be the one to look to that'll somehow reduce the costs of healthcare. Maybe after they fogive student loans, they can just forgive all medical expenses, too?

I'm not totally opposed to UHC, I just feel it should be proven and sustainable......... that means asking Americans to scrimp and plan ahead.......and they're mostly too undisciplined to ever agree.     so use Govt force yet again?

1. The mortality rate for chicken pox is 0.00035% and immaterial to Covid where people who have survived are actually getting re-infected. Of course I sent my daughter to play with the kid with chicken pox when she was little, but I wouldn't send her off to play with a kid who has a disease that is almost 6,000 times more deadly just for her to get it and expose her to me and her mother and all of our friends and so on.

2. What freedom do you lose to make an informed choice to not potentially kill your friends, family, and neighbors? What freedom do you lose when everyone else makes an informed choice in order to not potentially kill you?

And if you're talking about the government forcing you to wear a mask and practice social distancing, are you upset that you have lost your choice to kill your friends, family, and neighbors? Wear a mask and go get a gun.

3. False analogy. Those high-priced items were either covering up the funneling of money into a black-ops budget or were including all the costs associated with producing them... sort of like a $10 aspirin at the hospital including all of the costs of maintaining the facility and salaries of the workers. With single-payer UHC, the government can simply state that it's only going to pay $5 for the aspirin. Period.

4. How do you figure that the government paying the bill will force citizens to scrimp and plan ahead? As for being proven and sustainable, there are plenty of examples of it being just that. But I'm guessing you'd rather focus on the foibles of particular systems: "But... but... Waiting lines in Canada!!!!"

As for "force"... are you talking about taxes or do you think the National Guard is going to be called up to herd you into getting a checkup?

Anyway... we're off topic.

[abbey1227]

Apr 6, 2021 7:18:22 GMT Prometheus said:

1. The mortality rate for chicken pox is 0.00035% and immaterial to Covid where people who have survived are actually getting re-infected. Of course I sent my daughter to play with the kid with chicken pox when she was little, but I wouldn't send her off to play with a kid who has a disease that is almost 6,000 times more deadly just for her to get it and expose her to me and her mother and all of our friends and so on.

2. What freedom do you lose to make an informed choice to not potentially kill your friends, family, and neighbors? What freedom do you lose when everyone else makes an informed choice in order to not potentially kill you?

And if you're talking about the government forcing you to wear a mask and practice social distancing, are you upset that you have lost your choice to kill your friends, family, and neighbors? Wear a mask and go get a gun.

3. False analogy. Those high-priced items were either covering up the funneling of money into a black-ops budget or were including all the costs associated with producing them... sort of like a $10 aspirin at the hospital including all of the costs of maintaining the facility and salaries of the workers. With single-payer UHC, the government can simply state that it's only going to pay $5 for the aspirin. Period.

4. How do you figure that the government paying the bill will force citizens to scrimp and plan ahead? As for being proven and sustainable, there are plenty of examples of it being just that. But I'm guessing you'd rather focus on the foibles of particular systems: "But... but... Waiting lines in Canada!!!!"

As for "force"... are you talking about taxes or do you think the National Guard is going to be called up to herd you into getting a checkup?

Anyway... we're off topic.

1. You've obviously been convinced covid is much deadlier than I believe it to be. Unless your kid has some sort of vulnerability, I don't think she's got anything to be worried about from it.

2. The freedom to go about your everyday life. If the people scared of covid wish to stay home and protect themselves for the rest of their lives, have at 'er. My friends, family and neighbors were free to do all sorts of things that were of much greater danger to others in the recent past. We can save hundreds of thousands of lives by going back to Prohibition......eliminating cell phones would save as many or more.

3. Everything the Govt involves itself in sees an automatic rise in costs........ I can't decide if it's because they're so wasteful? or that people tend to think of tax dollars as free money? I'm sure you're aware of the costs involved in a college education these days? That rate sure shot up after they insisted that EVERYONE should have access no matter their ability to ever pay it back.

4. Simply because the average person will be losing another 5-15% of their income to the tax they'll surely be facing for UHC. IIRC, you posted a piece awhile back postulating on how much more people would need to pay in to cover such a program. I've mentioned many times I'd trust the Canadians or the Aussies or a number of other Govts to provide the US with a rigid structured healthcare program before the Govt we have. I already know it'll be a costly clusterF before they even start. And it's likely end up costing even more than 15% for the 1/2 of the country that pays for it.

Let's just say force is anytime it becomes mandatory. Like several other issues, like voter ID, this conversation is decades olde. Where are all the schools and students/grads and clinics and sponsors and pharmaceuticals and whoever else feels the need to push for this sort of charity at this point? It couldn't have been voluntarily put into place by now? Free/discounted schooling/training for everyone that pledges to put in a certain amount of time working for less in this proposed UHC system? As always, most claim to support something.......but to actually pay for it? That's always for other people to do.

I look at both the Debt and massive programs like the ACA or UHC as something that should be set up to be cost effective and sustainable.......THEN you wouldn't hear me bitching quite so loudly about them. If I were the Dictator in Charge, I put it to a vote and fully inform the YES voters how much more they'd have to start paying now top fully fund the project in the near future......it may take a few years to get enough set aside in a Fund to pay for it all. You think many will take me up on an honest offer like that?

But since I don't have kids, I really don't even know why I bother sticking to these sorta principles? I should just be voting YES for it all since it won't be my family/descendants paying a thing for it anyway. Call me olde fashioned, I guess.

[Prometheus]

Apr 8, 2021 12:42:17 GMT abbey1227 said:

Apr 6, 2021 7:18:22 GMT Prometheus said:

1. The mortality rate for chicken pox is 0.00035% and immaterial to Covid where people who have survived are actually getting re-infected. Of course I sent my daughter to play with the kid with chicken pox when she was little, but I wouldn't send her off to play with a kid who has a disease that is almost 6,000 times more deadly just for her to get it and expose her to me and her mother and all of our friends and so on.

2. What freedom do you lose to make an informed choice to not potentially kill your friends, family, and neighbors? What freedom do you lose when everyone else makes an informed choice in order to not potentially kill you?

And if you're talking about the government forcing you to wear a mask and practice social distancing, are you upset that you have lost your choice to kill your friends, family, and neighbors? Wear a mask and go get a gun.

3. False analogy. Those high-priced items were either covering up the funneling of money into a black-ops budget or were including all the costs associated with producing them... sort of like a $10 aspirin at the hospital including all of the costs of maintaining the facility and salaries of the workers. With single-payer UHC, the government can simply state that it's only going to pay $5 for the aspirin. Period.

4. How do you figure that the government paying the bill will force citizens to scrimp and plan ahead? As for being proven and sustainable, there are plenty of examples of it being just that. But I'm guessing you'd rather focus on the foibles of particular systems: "But... but... Waiting lines in Canada!!!!"

As for "force"... are you talking about taxes or do you think the National Guard is going to be called up to herd you into getting a checkup?

Anyway... we're off topic.

1. You've obviously been convinced covid is much deadlier than I believe it to be. Unless your kid has some sort of vulnerability, I don't think she's got anything to be worried about from it.

2. The freedom to go about your everyday life. If the people scared of covid wish to stay home and protect themselves for the rest of their lives, have at 'er. My friends, family and neighbors were free to do all sorts of things that were of much greater danger to others in the recent past. We can save hundreds of thousands of lives by going back to Prohibition......eliminating cell phones would save as many or more.

3. Everything the Govt involves itself in sees an automatic rise in costs........ I can't decide if it's because they're so wasteful? or that people tend to think of tax dollars as free money? I'm sure you're aware of the costs involved in a college education these days? That rate sure shot up after they insisted that EVERYONE should have access no matter their ability to ever pay it back.

4. Simply because the average person will be losing another 5-15% of their income to the tax they'll surely be facing for UHC. IIRC, you posted a piece awhile back postulating on how much more people would need to pay in to cover such a program. I've mentioned many times I'd trust the Canadians or the Aussies or a number of other Govts to provide the US with a rigid structured healthcare program before the Govt we have. I already know it'll be a costly clusterF before they even start. And it's likely end up costing even more than 15% for the 1/2 of the country that pays for it.

Let's just say force is anytime it becomes mandatory. Like several other issues, like voter ID, this conversation is decades olde. Where are all the schools and students/grads and clinics and sponsors and pharmaceuticals and whoever else feels the need to push for this sort of charity at this point? It couldn't have been voluntarily put into place by now? Free/discounted schooling/training for everyone that pledges to put in a certain amount of time working for less in this proposed UHC system? As always, most claim to support something.......but to actually pay for it? That's always for other people to do.

I look at both the Debt and massive programs like the ACA or UHC as something that should be set up to be cost effective and sustainable.......THEN you wouldn't hear me bitching quite so loudly about them. If I were the Dictator in Charge, I put it to a vote and fully inform the YES voters how much more they'd have to start paying now top fully fund the project in the near future......it may take a few years to get enough set aside in a Fund to pay for it all. You think many will take me up on an honest offer like that?

But since I don't have kids, I really don't even know why I bother sticking to these sorta principles? I should just be voting YES for it all since it won't be my family/descendants paying a thing for it anyway. Call me olde fashioned, I guess.

1. I'm convinced that nearly 574,000 Americans have already died from it when the math and science say it should have been less than 150,000. You want to hang your hat on the 2% mortality rate and say, "It's not that bad" and I'd probably be right there with you if the infection rate in the US wasn't 5 times the world average. The more people that get infected, the more people are going to die. But I'll concede. The disease isn't that deadly. The idiots who won't follow the rules are. Let's legalize pot and empty the prisons for all the Karens who should now be charged with 574,000 counts of murder each.

2. How would anyone be kept from going about their normal life by covering their face in public, washing their hands, and keeping a distance of 6 feet where possible? There are plenty of countries doing just fine by doing just that.

3. False analogy. The costs of colleges shot up due to having to hire more staff and build bigger facilities to accommodate more students... and increase their margins a bit. THAT is a multi-payer system as opposed to SINGLE-PAYER UHC.

4. I know how much it would cost and I think it's worth it to have a healthy, happy, less-stressed workforce. And I have no problem with taxing people to pay for it since removing their premiums, deductibles, and co-pays will now be back in their pockets. And another great benefit would be loosening the grip of the labor unions when they lose one of their standard bargaining chips.

As for 1/2 of the population paying for the other half's bills, that's what health insurance does now, but since their are multiple payers, they have to compete and still maintain margins and get to strike all sorts of different deals. Go do a little research and call around to the hospitals in your area about how much they charge for certain procedures. I'm betting you'll find tons of price variations even if you've got insurance.

Now imagine that you can buy "in bulk." You'll get an even better price, won't you? Of course you will. That's what insurance companies do.

Now imagine you're the only customer. You can pretty much set the price, right?

That's single-payer UHC.

And if you think the government is going to negotiate to pay $15,000 per person per year then you need to go buy a hospital right now.

The other thing you're probably thinking is that the "half" that isn't paying in - the poor - are also the ones using the bulk of the services, and you're probably right. However, were they healthier, they just might be able to hold down a job and start paying some taxes and using their discretionary income to build the economy.

I find it odd that many of the same people (not you necessarily) who talk about "American Exceptionalism" are terrified by the notion of America possibly doing a better job with UHC than other countries. If America is so awesome, then implementing a workable, sustainable UHC system shouldn't be that hard. Let's prove those America-haters wrong by doing the right thing well for once.

Oh. One last thing: if you're worried about someone's kids having to pay the bill for the National Debt one day, don't. It's never going to happen. Japan (largest holder of US debt) isn't going to start robo-calling Congress for collections. That's not how economics works. But hey, if we start collecting $3 trillion in taxes now and work our way down only spending $2 trillion, guess what's going to happen to that National Debt when we have $1 trillion in surplus every year.

This is where you bring up spending boondoggles again.

My advice to you, if you don't like how the American government is working, is to leave. Go see how other countries treat immigrants. Go see what work opportunities are available to you as a foreigner. Go see how you are treated as a foreigner on a day-to-day basis.

Either that or make a run for office. Shake up the establishment rather than trying to shake up social media. Grab the national spotlight AOC-style with your "hard right libertarianism."

[abbey1227]

Apr 9, 2021 2:18:58 GMT Prometheus said:

My advice to you, if you don't like how the American government is working, is to leave. Go see how other countries treat immigrants. Go see what work opportunities are available to you as a foreigner. Go see how you are treated as a foreigner on a day-to-day basis.

Either that or make a run for office. Shake up the establishment rather than trying to shake up social media. Grab the national spotlight AOC-style with your "hard right libertarianism."

Better idea...........leave the US, giving up citizenship.......and then sneak back in. Apparently that's the best way to get the Govt to just pay for all your wants and needs. 

I'd run for office if I thought people wanted to be told the truth.........and be faced with doing with less govt in their lives. They won't go for it.......we both know that. Especially the Net Lossers

[Prometheus]

Just heard Maher say, "Photo IDs to vote? Sure, it's a pain in the ass but you take pictures of every other fucking thing! Think of it as a selfie for democracy!"

[abbey1227]

Apr 14, 2021 6:20:32 GMT Prometheus said:

Just heard Maher say, "Photo IDs to vote? Sure, it's a pain in the ass but you take pictures of every other fucking thing! Think of it as a selfie for democracy!"

Why is it a pain in the ass? So many motivated political operatives? and they can't get people an ID?

Tie it directly to gun purchasing/ownership...... what's required or allowed for one, should be expected for the other