Kyle Hill...

[ant-mac]

Aug 14, 2021 4:38:07 GMT Prometheus said:

Aug 5, 2021 2:40:38 GMT ant-mac said:

"God gave me permission."

So much for the old "Scientists are all atheists" argument....

I learned that one in high school.

There was a science teacher there who was a well-known bible thumper.

And the list of Christians and Muslims throughout history who have made contributions to science is a long one. I'd imagine this was true of many other belief systems as well, because it was the religious individuals who were often the most well-educated and who had access to the latest "knowledge".

[Prometheus]

Aug 14, 2021 6:04:41 GMT ant-mac said:

Aug 14, 2021 4:38:07 GMT Prometheus said:

"God gave me permission."

So much for the old "Scientists are all atheists" argument....

I learned that one in high school.

There was a science teacher there who was a well-known bible thumper.

And the list of Christians and Muslims throughout history who have made contributions to science is a long one. I'd imagine this was true of many other belief systems as well, because it was the religious individuals who were often the most well-educated and who had access to the latest "knowledge".

Many well-known western scientists thought that learning more about the world and universe we live in would help bring us closer to an understanding of God's nature.

They did science for the "Glory of God."

These days, "hard" atheists say that science proves god doesn't exist, despite the fact that there have been no experiments done on that front.

[Prometheus]

Aug 14, 2021 5:56:53 GMT ant-mac said:

Aug 14, 2021 5:12:04 GMT Prometheus said:

Why are Asian societies so much better at dealing with crises than western ones?

A less robust and ubiquitous "bill of rights" or "constitution"? 

I don't think so:

Individual rights (Articles 10–40)
See also: Human rights in Japan

"The rights and duties of the people" are featured prominently in the post-war constitution. Thirty-one of its 103 articles are devoted to describing them in detail, reflecting the commitment to "respect for the fundamental human rights" of the Potsdam Declaration. Although the Meiji Constitution had a section devoted to the "rights and duties of subjects" which guaranteed "liberty of speech, writing, publication, public meetings, and associations", these rights were granted "within the limits of law" and could be limited by legislation.[10] Freedom of religious belief was allowed "insofar as it does not interfere with the duties of subjects" (all Japanese were required to acknowledge the Emperor's divinity, and those, such as Christians, who refused to do so out of religious conviction were accused of lèse-majesté). Such freedoms are delineated in the post-war constitution without qualification.

Individual rights under the Japanese constitution are rooted in Article 13 where the constitution asserts the right of the people "to be respected as individuals" and, subject to "the public welfare", to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". This article's core notion is jinkaku, which represents "the elements of character and personality that come together to define each person as an individual", and which represents the aspects of each individual's life that the government is obligated to respect in the exercise of its power.[31] Article 13 has been used as the basis to establish constitutional rights to privacy, self-determination and the control of an individual's own image, rights which are not explicitly stated in the constitution.

Subsequent provisions provide for:

Equality before the law: The constitution guarantees equality before the law and outlaws discrimination against Japanese citizens based on "political, economic or social relations" or "race, creed, sex, social status or family origin" (Article 14). The right to vote cannot be denied on the grounds of "race, creed, sex, social status, family origin, education, property or income" (Article 44). Equality between the sexes is explicitly guaranteed in relation to marriage (Article 24) and childhood education (Article 26).
Prohibition of peerage: Article 14 forbids the state from recognising peerage. Honours may be conferred but they must not be hereditary or grant special privileges.
Democratic elections: Article 15 provides that "the people have the inalienable right to choose their public officials and to dismiss them". It guarantees universal adult (in Japan, persons age 20 and older) suffrage and the secret ballot.
Prohibition of slavery: Guaranteed by Article 18. Involuntary servitude is permitted only as punishment for a crime.
Separation of Religion and State: The state is prohibited from granting privileges or political authority to a religion, or conducting religious education (Article 20).
Freedom of assembly, association, speech, and secrecy of communications: All guaranteed without qualification by Article 21, which forbids censorship.
Workers' rights: Work is declared both a right and obligation by Article 27 which also states that "standards for wages, hours, rest and other working conditions shall be fixed by law" and that children shall not be exploited. Workers have the right to participate in a trade union (Article 28).
Right to property: Guaranteed subject to the "public welfare". The state may take property for public use if it pays just compensation (Article 29). The state also has the right to levy taxes (Article 30).
Right to due process: Article 31 provides that no one may be punished "except according to procedure established by law". Article 32, which provides that "No person shall be denied the right of access to the courts", originally drafted to recognize criminal due process rights, is now also understood as the source of due process rights for civil and administrative law cases.[32]
Protection against unlawful detention: Article 33 provides that no one may be apprehended without an arrest warrant, save where caught in flagrante delicto. Article 34 guarantees habeas corpus, right to counsel, and right to be informed of charges. Article 40 enshrines the right to sue the state for wrongful detention.
Right to a fair trial: Article 37 guarantees the right to a public trial before an impartial tribunal with counsel for one's defence and compulsory access to witnesses.
Protection against self-incrimination: Article 38 provides that no one may be compelled to testify against themselves, that confessions obtained under duress are not admissible and that no one may be convicted solely on the basis of their own confession.
Other guarantees:
Right to petition government (Article 16)
Right to sue the state (Article 17)
Freedom of thought and conscience (Article 19)
Freedom of expression (Article 19)
Freedom of religion (Article 20)
Rights to change residence, choose employment, move abroad and relinquish nationality (Article 22)
Academic freedom (Article 23)
Prohibition of forced marriage (Article 24)
Compulsory education (Article 26)
Protection against entries, search and seizures (Article 35)
Prohibition of torture and cruel punishments (Article 36)
Prohibition of ex post facto laws (Article 39)
Prohibition of double jeopardy (Article 39)

Under Japanese case law, constitutional human rights apply to corporations to the extent possible given their corporate nature. Constitutional human rights also apply to foreign nationals to the extent that such rights are not by their nature only applicable to citizens (for example, foreigners have no right to enter Japan under Article 22 and no right to vote under Article 15, and their other political rights may be restricted to the extent that they interfere with the state's decision making).

I think it has more to do with respecting each other as human beings and understanding that in a moment of crisis certain things might have to take a momentary backseat.

Fixing things doesn't have to be debated and legislated. It just needs to be done.

[ant-mac]

Aug 15, 2021 9:16:06 GMT Prometheus said:

Aug 14, 2021 5:56:53 GMT ant-mac said:

A less robust and ubiquitous "bill of rights" or "constitution"? 

I don't think so:

Individual rights (Articles 10–40)
See also: Human rights in Japan

"The rights and duties of the people" are featured prominently in the post-war constitution. Thirty-one of its 103 articles are devoted to describing them in detail, reflecting the commitment to "respect for the fundamental human rights" of the Potsdam Declaration. Although the Meiji Constitution had a section devoted to the "rights and duties of subjects" which guaranteed "liberty of speech, writing, publication, public meetings, and associations", these rights were granted "within the limits of law" and could be limited by legislation.[10] Freedom of religious belief was allowed "insofar as it does not interfere with the duties of subjects" (all Japanese were required to acknowledge the Emperor's divinity, and those, such as Christians, who refused to do so out of religious conviction were accused of lèse-majesté). Such freedoms are delineated in the post-war constitution without qualification.

Individual rights under the Japanese constitution are rooted in Article 13 where the constitution asserts the right of the people "to be respected as individuals" and, subject to "the public welfare", to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". This article's core notion is jinkaku, which represents "the elements of character and personality that come together to define each person as an individual", and which represents the aspects of each individual's life that the government is obligated to respect in the exercise of its power.[31] Article 13 has been used as the basis to establish constitutional rights to privacy, self-determination and the control of an individual's own image, rights which are not explicitly stated in the constitution.

Subsequent provisions provide for:

Equality before the law: The constitution guarantees equality before the law and outlaws discrimination against Japanese citizens based on "political, economic or social relations" or "race, creed, sex, social status or family origin" (Article 14). The right to vote cannot be denied on the grounds of "race, creed, sex, social status, family origin, education, property or income" (Article 44). Equality between the sexes is explicitly guaranteed in relation to marriage (Article 24) and childhood education (Article 26).
Prohibition of peerage: Article 14 forbids the state from recognising peerage. Honours may be conferred but they must not be hereditary or grant special privileges.
Democratic elections: Article 15 provides that "the people have the inalienable right to choose their public officials and to dismiss them". It guarantees universal adult (in Japan, persons age 20 and older) suffrage and the secret ballot.
Prohibition of slavery: Guaranteed by Article 18. Involuntary servitude is permitted only as punishment for a crime.
Separation of Religion and State: The state is prohibited from granting privileges or political authority to a religion, or conducting religious education (Article 20).
Freedom of assembly, association, speech, and secrecy of communications: All guaranteed without qualification by Article 21, which forbids censorship.
Workers' rights: Work is declared both a right and obligation by Article 27 which also states that "standards for wages, hours, rest and other working conditions shall be fixed by law" and that children shall not be exploited. Workers have the right to participate in a trade union (Article 28).
Right to property: Guaranteed subject to the "public welfare". The state may take property for public use if it pays just compensation (Article 29). The state also has the right to levy taxes (Article 30).
Right to due process: Article 31 provides that no one may be punished "except according to procedure established by law". Article 32, which provides that "No person shall be denied the right of access to the courts", originally drafted to recognize criminal due process rights, is now also understood as the source of due process rights for civil and administrative law cases.[32]
Protection against unlawful detention: Article 33 provides that no one may be apprehended without an arrest warrant, save where caught in flagrante delicto. Article 34 guarantees habeas corpus, right to counsel, and right to be informed of charges. Article 40 enshrines the right to sue the state for wrongful detention.
Right to a fair trial: Article 37 guarantees the right to a public trial before an impartial tribunal with counsel for one's defence and compulsory access to witnesses.
Protection against self-incrimination: Article 38 provides that no one may be compelled to testify against themselves, that confessions obtained under duress are not admissible and that no one may be convicted solely on the basis of their own confession.
Other guarantees:
Right to petition government (Article 16)
Right to sue the state (Article 17)
Freedom of thought and conscience (Article 19)
Freedom of expression (Article 19)
Freedom of religion (Article 20)
Rights to change residence, choose employment, move abroad and relinquish nationality (Article 22)
Academic freedom (Article 23)
Prohibition of forced marriage (Article 24)
Compulsory education (Article 26)
Protection against entries, search and seizures (Article 35)
Prohibition of torture and cruel punishments (Article 36)
Prohibition of ex post facto laws (Article 39)
Prohibition of double jeopardy (Article 39)

Under Japanese case law, constitutional human rights apply to corporations to the extent possible given their corporate nature. Constitutional human rights also apply to foreign nationals to the extent that such rights are not by their nature only applicable to citizens (for example, foreigners have no right to enter Japan under Article 22 and no right to vote under Article 15, and their other political rights may be restricted to the extent that they interfere with the state's decision making).

I think it has more to do with respecting each other as human beings and understanding that in a moment of crisis certain things might have to take a momentary backseat.

Fixing things doesn't have to be debated and legislated. It just needs to be done.

Japan is at the upper end of Asian societies, when it comes to Human rights.

Which is a sick joke when you consider what they did to their Human prisoners during WWII.

I was referring to Asian societies in general, not Japan specifically, which is what I believe you were doing.

[ant-mac]

[Prometheus]

Aug 15, 2021 10:40:01 GMT ant-mac said:

Aug 15, 2021 9:16:06 GMT Prometheus said:

I don't think so:

I think it has more to do with respecting each other as human beings and understanding that in a moment of crisis certain things might have to take a momentary backseat.

Fixing things doesn't have to be debated and legislated. It just needs to be done.

Japan is at the upper end of Asian societies, when it comes to Human rights.

Which is a sick joke when you consider what they did to their Human prisoners during WWII.

I was referring to Asian societies in general, not Japan specifically, which is what I believe you were doing.

I must have missed this. Sorry.

Yes. I was speaking in general... about culture rather than politics. Your answer was strictly about politics, so I gave a political example.

As for Japan's track record: are we keeping score from the beginning of recorded history? If we are then I doubt many of our societies would fair well in the "human rights" category regardless of "advancements" made in the past half century or so.

But, if you'd like to talk about human rights vis-a-vis a particular culture or even a shared regional culture, then I'm game. East Asian cultures absolutely have different ideas about "human rights" - which is a notion based in western (European) philosophy rather than any East Asian philosophy which tend towards the RIGHTS of the dominant and the RESPONSIBILITIES of the dominated... and a captured enemy in wartime is "dominated."

In East Asia, they have thousands of years of enculturation that bids them to do what they are told by those in authority, so they do it: "Wear a mask and follow these other rules." "OK."

In the west we have thousands of years of enculturation that bids us to "question authority": "Wear a mask and follow these other rules." "Who are you to tell me to do anything? I have rights!"

We can look back on western history and find plenty of times when the "question authority" thing was absolutely (and violently) suppressed, but we can also look to it as the basis of every revolution and civil war.

In the end, East Asian philosophy is better at dealing with public crises than western philosophy... even if it's not so good at what we westerners call, "Human Rights."

[ant-mac]

Oct 1, 2021 23:41:13 GMT Prometheus said:

Aug 15, 2021 10:40:01 GMT ant-mac said:

Japan is at the upper end of Asian societies, when it comes to Human rights.

Which is a sick joke when you consider what they did to their Human prisoners during WWII.

I was referring to Asian societies in general, not Japan specifically, which is what I believe you were doing.

I must have missed this. Sorry.

Yes. I was speaking in general... about culture rather than politics. Your answer was strictly about politics, so I gave a political example.

As for Japan's track record: are we keeping score from the beginning of recorded history? If we are then I doubt many of our societies would fair well in the "human rights" category regardless of "advancements" made in the past half century or so.

But, if you'd like to talk about human rights vis-a-vis a particular culture or even a shared regional culture, then I'm game. East Asian cultures absolutely have different ideas about "human rights" - which is a notion based in western (European) philosophy rather than any East Asian philosophy which tend towards the RIGHTS of the dominant and the RESPONSIBILITIES of the dominated... and a captured enemy in wartime is "dominated."

In East Asia, they have thousands of years of enculturation that bids them to do what they are told by those in authority, so they do it: "Wear a mask and follow these other rules." "OK."

In the west we have thousands of years of enculturation that bids us to "question authority": "Wear a mask and follow these other rules." "Who are you to tell me to do anything? I have rights!"

We can look back on western history and find plenty of times when the "question authority" thing was absolutely (and violently) suppressed, but we can also look to it as the basis of every revolution and civil war.

In the end, East Asian philosophy is better at dealing with public crises than western philosophy... even if it's not so good at what we westerners call, "Human Rights."

No worries, mate, it's easy enough to do. I sometimes come across a post and I'm thinking, "How long has this been a thing"?

And yes, I agree that there's plenty of shitty behaviour to share around with a multitude of countries and cultures on this planet, both ancient and modern.

It just happened to be Japan's turn on this occasion. 

[ant-mac]

[abbey1227]

Oct 2, 2021 1:09:25 GMT ant-mac said:

1. I believe the whackos here have already decided to change the name of that fish so as not to offend.

2. For whatever reason? The Mississippi River, for one, flooded, like it so rarely does and these imported fish were set free to roam about afterwards. That's some serious and careful planning on the part of humans.

3. Why stop them at all? Isn't this just another group seeking out a new a better life in the US? Who are we to try to stop the tide of progress?

4. Why bother bringing up economic damage? Money isn't everything. In fact, it's practically become taboo.

[ant-mac]

Oct 2, 2021 2:02:38 GMT abbey1227 said:

Oct 2, 2021 1:09:25 GMT ant-mac said:

1. I believe the whackos here have already decided to change the name of that fish so as not to offend.

2. For whatever reason? The Mississippi River, for one, flooded, like it so rarely does and these imported fish were set free to roam about afterwards. That's some serious and careful planning on the part of humans.

3. Why stop them at all? Isn't this just another group seeking out a new a better life in the US? Who are we to try to stop the tide of progress?

4. Why bother bringing up economic damage? Money isn't everything. In fact, it's practically become taboo.

Stop your whining and go for a boat ride on the river...

I'll send you a get well card. 

[Prometheus]

Oct 2, 2021 2:02:38 GMT abbey1227 said:

Oct 2, 2021 1:09:25 GMT ant-mac said:

1. I believe the whackos here have already decided to change the name of that fish so as not to offend.

2. For whatever reason? The Mississippi River, for one, flooded, like it so rarely does and these imported fish were set free to roam about afterwards. That's some serious and careful planning on the part of humans.

3. Why stop them at all? Isn't this just another group seeking out a new a better life in the US? Who are we to try to stop the tide of progress?

4. Why bother bringing up economic damage? Money isn't everything. In fact, it's practically become taboo.

1. Yes they have and with good reason: some racist morons can't hear the word "Asian" without associating it with every negative stereotype they've ever experienced about "Asians"... particularly East Asians.

2. Agreed. Most humans are poor planners.

3. And straight to the racism!

4. SMFH

[Prometheus]

Oct 2, 2021 3:19:54 GMT Prometheus said:

Oct 2, 2021 2:02:38 GMT abbey1227 said:

1. I believe the whackos here have already decided to change the name of that fish so as not to offend.

2. For whatever reason? The Mississippi River, for one, flooded, like it so rarely does and these imported fish were set free to roam about afterwards. That's some serious and careful planning on the part of humans.

3. Why stop them at all? Isn't this just another group seeking out a new a better life in the US? Who are we to try to stop the tide of progress?

4. Why bother bringing up economic damage? Money isn't everything. In fact, it's practically become taboo.

1. Yes they have and with good reason: some racist morons can't hear the word "Asian" without associating it with every negative stereotype they've ever experienced about "Asians"... particularly East Asians.

2. Agreed. Most humans are poor planners.

3. And straight to the racism!

4. SMFH

Note:

In #1, I was referring to racist morons in America. I suspect that "Asian" in Europe might conjure up images of Indians or Pakistanis among their racist morons.

[abbey1227]

Oct 2, 2021 2:48:03 GMT ant-mac said:

Oct 2, 2021 2:02:38 GMT abbey1227 said:

Stop your whining and go for a boat ride on the river...

I'll send you a get well card. 

And I'll send you a Fish-Gram

[abbey1227]

Oct 2, 2021 3:19:54 GMT Prometheus said:

Oct 2, 2021 2:02:38 GMT abbey1227 said:

1. I believe the whackos here have already decided to change the name of that fish so as not to offend.

2. For whatever reason? The Mississippi River, for one, flooded, like it so rarely does and these imported fish were set free to roam about afterwards. That's some serious and careful planning on the part of humans.

3. Why stop them at all? Isn't this just another group seeking out a new a better life in the US? Who are we to try to stop the tide of progress?

4. Why bother bringing up economic damage? Money isn't everything. In fact, it's practically become taboo.

1. Yes they have and with good reason: some racist morons can't hear the word "Asian" without associating it with every negative stereotype they've ever experienced about "Asians"... particularly East Asians.

2. Agreed. Most humans are poor planners.

3. And straight to the racism!

4. SMFH                                                            Note:

In #1, I was referring to racist morons in America. I suspect that "Asian" in Europe might conjure up images of Indians or Pakistanis among their racist morons.

I guess I never really included Indians or Pakistanis as 'Asians'....... just the Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, etc etc and maybe even Eskimo/Inuit types on either side of the Bering Strait. I'm not sure where I ever placed their heritage though. If you think about it, everyone that was 'native American' and down thru Central and South America were descended from the same groups, sooooooo..........but I've never really thought of them as Asians either.

That's a common theme throughout the ages.

3. I fail to see even a hint of racism in that. Economic discrimination? Sure. Nationalism, sure. But race? Nope, you're seeing what you wish to see, not what's there.

4. Maybe you haven't been listening to the latest onslaught of collectivist chants? Having money, working for more money, wanting to keep your own money.......all are targets for SHAME! these days.

[Prometheus]

Oct 2, 2021 12:41:00 GMT abbey1227 said:

Oct 2, 2021 3:19:54 GMT Prometheus said:

1. Yes they have and with good reason: some racist morons can't hear the word "Asian" without associating it with every negative stereotype they've ever experienced about "Asians"... particularly East Asians.

2. Agreed. Most humans are poor planners.

3. And straight to the racism!

4. SMFH                                                            Note:

In #1, I was referring to racist morons in America. I suspect that "Asian" in Europe might conjure up images of Indians or Pakistanis among their racist morons.

I guess I never really included Indians or Pakistanis as 'Asians'....... just the Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, etc etc and maybe even Eskimo/Inuit types on either side of the Bering Strait. I'm not sure where I ever placed their heritage though. If you think about it, everyone that was 'native American' and down thru Central and South America were descended from the same groups, sooooooo..........but I've never really thought of them as Asians either.

That's a common theme throughout the ages.

3. I fail to see even a hint of racism in that. Economic discrimination? Sure. Nationalism, sure. But race? Nope, you're seeing what you wish to see, not what's there.

4. Maybe you haven't been listening to the latest onslaught of collectivist chants? Having money, working for more money, wanting to keep your own money.......all are targets for SHAME! these days.

1. Yes. Americans tend to forget that Israel is in Asia. Iraq is in Asia, Etc. That's why I made the note.

3. C'mon Abs. We know which "immigrants" you dislike and it ain't the ones from Canada.

4. "Having money" Nope. I haven't heard that one.

"Working for more money" People have been working for money for hundreds of years and they have been complaining about the "haves" since the beginning. Do you really think this is something new?

"Wanting to keep your money" I haven't heard about this being a problem either... at least not in the US or this century.

Do you hear the Zoomers crying about the 1% and think that they are talking about you?

[abbey1227]

Oct 2, 2021 13:45:18 GMT Prometheus said:

1. Yes. Americans tend to forget that Israel is in Asia. Iraq is in Asia, Etc. That's why I made the note.

3. C'mon Abs. We know which "immigrants" you dislike and it ain't the ones from Canada.

4. "Having money" Nope. I haven't heard that one.

"Working for more money" People have been working for money for hundreds of years and they have been complaining about the "haves" since the beginning. Do you really think this is something new?

"Wanting to keep your money" I haven't heard about this being a problem either... at least not in the US or this century.

Do you hear the Zoomers crying about the 1% and think that they are talking about you?

1. Israel, too? Good thing you made the note.

3. I'll never concede that. I've repeatedly stated my views on Illegals no matter where they come from. I'd also be more than willing to trade millions of pale trailer park welfare recipients for hard working and motivated legal immigrants or legal Guest Workers, for that matter. You must be more Libertarian on that one subject of borders than I'll ever be.

4. Where do you suppose all the attempts at new Wealth Taxes are coming from? It's not anything new......the Bible lists Envy as one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

It's a problem, imgoofyo, when the typical tax payer is working 1-2 days outta 5 for the Govt/taxes. And the latest wave of Americans seems to envy the way places like Norway and elsewhere work even more days than that.

No, I'm just willing to defend the 1% on principle alone.

Like Maher said........why do all these 'influencers' seem to think they're above shitty jobs, shitty apartments and all the rest of the stuff that MOST people have to endure as they struggle and work their way upwards, though?

An interesting number I heard just the other day.........the average American these days looks at their phone 96 times a day. And the Under 25 crowd is more than double that. WHERE is this sorta self-induced ADHD headed, do you think?

Not a better, more productive society. I don't see how it could. They better get onto making those robots that do everything for us quick.

[ant-mac]

Oct 2, 2021 12:33:03 GMT abbey1227 said:

Oct 2, 2021 2:48:03 GMT ant-mac said:

Stop your whining and go for a boat ride on the river...

I'll send you a get well card. 

And I'll send you a Fish-Gram

I hope you make a full recovery, cod willing.

[abbey1227]

Oct 2, 2021 15:43:21 GMT ant-mac said:

Oct 2, 2021 12:33:03 GMT abbey1227 said:

And I'll send you a Fish-Gram

I hope you make a full recovery, cod willing.

You've left me floundering for a response. Maybe I won't take the bait this time?

[ant-mac]

Oct 2, 2021 23:18:56 GMT abbey1227 said:

Oct 2, 2021 15:43:21 GMT ant-mac said:

I hope you make a full recovery, cod willing.

You've left me floundering for a response. Maybe I won't take the bait this time?

You do nothing but carp...

And you know you took the bait, hook, line and sinker!

[abbey1227]

Oct 2, 2021 23:23:37 GMT ant-mac said:

Oct 2, 2021 23:18:56 GMT abbey1227 said:

You've left me floundering for a response. Maybe I won't take the bait this time?

You do nothing but carp...

And you know you took the bait, hook, line and sinker!

It's a problem I can't seem to tackle, Fish