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Post by Prometheus on Jul 14, 2021 12:03:03 GMT
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Post by permutojoe on Jul 17, 2021 4:07:45 GMT
Liberals are technically not left but moderates in the middle. Or at least they were back in the old days. Now they're radical socialists, at least according to any Republican.
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Post by Prometheus on Jul 17, 2021 5:00:14 GMT
Liberals are technically not left but moderates in the middle. Or at least they were back in the old days. Now they're radical socialists, at least according to any Republican. I think the video mentions that most European countries would regard average American "lib" to still being "center-right."
Most "cons" these days consider anyone left of Attila the Hun to be a "commie."
BTBF, many (if not most) "libs" seem to think that anyone to the right of Marx is a "fascist," so.... ![[giveup]](//storage.proboards.com/7182076/images/FSYefibmKqtatIXMgHZg.gif) |
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Post by permutojoe on Jul 17, 2021 15:08:11 GMT
Liberals are technically not left but moderates in the middle. Or at least they were back in the old days. Now they're radical socialists, at least according to any Republican. I think the video mentions that most European countries would regard average American "lib" to still being "center-right."
Most "cons" these days consider anyone left of Attila the Hun to be a "commie."
BTBF, many (if not most) "libs" seem to think that anyone to the right of Marx is a "fascist," so.... Definitely not true. You could say anyone to the right of ________ and name a centrist modern politician. But I've never seen anyone say that about Marx. |
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Post by Prometheus on Jul 18, 2021 0:17:22 GMT
I think the video mentions that most European countries would regard average American "lib" to still being "center-right."
Most "cons" these days consider anyone left of Attila the Hun to be a "commie."
BTBF, many (if not most) "libs" seem to think that anyone to the right of Marx is a "fascist," so.... Definitely not true. You could say anyone to the right of ________ and name a centrist modern politician. But I've never seen anyone say that about Marx. Marx, like Attila, was just a (somewhat) comical reference point.
However, I'm sure you've heard people described as "fascist" for any number of political positions, some of which have nothing to do with fascism.
In the end, these labels have become little more than useless epithets unless applied correctly.
For example, China is a single-party, hyper-nationalist police-state, led by a dictator with a strong cult of personality, where most heavy industry is controlled directly by the state and other capitalist ventures are encouraged but heavily regulated. There is institutionalized racism and it is taught to all students in schools, which are controlled by the party and where membership in party youth groups can influence grades and future university and job placement. And don't forget the government-administered "social credit" system.
Did I mention that all middle and high school students receive two weeks of military training every summer?
If the word "communist" wasn't in the party name, you'd probably be tempted to identify the country as "fascist."
It's a perfect example of why the left/right paradigm is mostly useless at this point. Extreme views simply bend towards authoritarianism almost to the point of being unable to distinguish between the two but for a few points.
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Post by permutojoe on Jul 18, 2021 1:16:27 GMT
Definitely not true. You could say anyone to the right of ________ and name a centrist modern politician. But I've never seen anyone say that about Marx. Marx, like Attila, was just a (somewhat) comical reference point.
However, I'm sure you've heard people described as "fascist" for any number of political positions, some of which have nothing to do with fascism.
In the end, these labels have become little more than useless epithets unless applied correctly.
For example, China is a single-party, hyper-nationalist police-state, led by a dictator with a strong cult of personality, where most heavy industry is controlled directly by the state and other capitalist ventures are encouraged but heavily regulated. There is institutionalized racism and it is taught to all students in schools, which are controlled by the party and where membership in party youth groups can influence grades and future university and job placement. And don't forget the government-administered "social credit" system.
Did I mention that all middle and high school students receive two weeks of military training every summer?
If the word "communist" wasn't in the party name, you'd probably be tempted to identify the country as "fascist."
It's a perfect example of why the left/right paradigm is mostly useless at this point. Extreme views simply bend towards authoritarianism almost to the point of being unable to distinguish between the two but for a few points.
What if your views are extreme but in such a way that they are based on anti-authoritarianism? |
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Post by Prometheus on Jul 18, 2021 1:24:17 GMT
Marx, like Attila, was just a (somewhat) comical reference point.
However, I'm sure you've heard people described as "fascist" for any number of political positions, some of which have nothing to do with fascism.
In the end, these labels have become little more than useless epithets unless applied correctly.
For example, China is a single-party, hyper-nationalist police-state, led by a dictator with a strong cult of personality, where most heavy industry is controlled directly by the state and other capitalist ventures are encouraged but heavily regulated. There is institutionalized racism and it is taught to all students in schools, which are controlled by the party and where membership in party youth groups can influence grades and future university and job placement. And don't forget the government-administered "social credit" system.
Did I mention that all middle and high school students receive two weeks of military training every summer?
If the word "communist" wasn't in the party name, you'd probably be tempted to identify the country as "fascist."
It's a perfect example of why the left/right paradigm is mostly useless at this point. Extreme views simply bend towards authoritarianism almost to the point of being unable to distinguish between the two but for a few points.
What if your views are extreme but in such a way that they are based on anti-authoritarianism? You mean "libertarianism"? Sadly, "libertarian" is as misused a word as "communist" or "fascist" (and with just as many "branches") these days, but if you could give me an example, I'd be more than happy to discuss any merits it might have... or not. That said, it's time for me to take a shower and get to work, so my response will have to wait until your tomorrow. ![[cheers]](//storage.proboards.com/7182076/images/engyBVslEdpmpmdnBwZQ.gif) |
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Post by permutojoe1 on Jul 18, 2021 11:25:52 GMT
What if your views are extreme but in such a way that they are based on anti-authoritarianism? You mean "libertarianism"? Sadly, "libertarian" is as misused a word as "communist" or "fascist" (and with just as many "branches") these days, but if you could give me an example, I'd be more than happy to discuss any merits it might have... or not. That said, it's time for me to take a shower and get to work, so my response will have to wait until your tomorrow. No, libertarianism is one of the most right-winged ideologies going today. To truly oppose authoritarianism you would basically be very pro-democracy. That's the only counter to kleptocracy, fascism, oligarchy, etc. |
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Post by Prometheus on Jul 19, 2021 0:07:04 GMT
You mean "libertarianism"? Sadly, "libertarian" is as misused a word as "communist" or "fascist" (and with just as many "branches") these days, but if you could give me an example, I'd be more than happy to discuss any merits it might have... or not. That said, it's time for me to take a shower and get to work, so my response will have to wait until your tomorrow. No, libertarianism is one of the most right-winged ideologies going today. To truly oppose authoritarianism you would basically be very pro-democracy. That's the only counter to kleptocracy, fascism, oligarchy, etc. Noam Chomsky would be disheartened by your opinion of libertarianism as he considered himself to be a libertarian.
Authoritarian and libertarian are a different axis from "left/right"
Left vs right wing politics has traditionally been about economic freedom (as the video correctly stated). Think of it as the x axis.
Authoritarian vs libertarian concerns itself with social freedom. It's the y axis.
One can be libertarian right or libertarian left; authoritarian left or authoritarian right. Trump, Biden, and Hillary are ALL authoritarian RIGHT with Hillary being the closest to the median on social issues but not by much. Even Bernie is barely left of center economically but dead center between authoritarian and libertarian.
Presidential candidates from the Libertarian Party (big L not small l) are usually a hair more to the right on the economic freedom axis than Republicans (and just two or three hairs more than the Dems) but also favor waaaay more social freedom than both even though they barely pass the median.
Greens are actually the most left (about halfway from the center to the extreme) and the most libertarian (again, about halfway from the center to the extreme) of the political parties in the US... about the same location as Noam Chomsky.
Democracy does NOT guarantee liberty. Hitler was democratically elected, as were many other authoritarian leaders both past and present, including Donnie Dimwit.
Pure anarchism would be the most libertarian ideology, but for reasons of biology would never happen.
I hope that helped.
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Post by permutojoe1 on Jul 21, 2021 23:26:18 GMT
No, libertarianism is one of the most right-winged ideologies going today. To truly oppose authoritarianism you would basically be very pro-democracy. That's the only counter to kleptocracy, fascism, oligarchy, etc. Noam Chomsky would be disheartened by your opinion of libertarianism as he considered himself to be a libertarian.
Authoritarian and libertarian are a different axis from "left/right"
Left vs right wing politics has traditionally been about economic freedom (as the video correctly stated). Think of it as the x axis.
Authoritarian vs libertarian concerns itself with social freedom. It's the y axis.
One can be libertarian right or libertarian left; authoritarian left or authoritarian right. Trump, Biden, and Hillary are ALL authoritarian RIGHT with Hillary being the closest to the median on social issues but not by much. Even Bernie is barely left of center economically but dead center between authoritarian and libertarian.
Presidential candidates from the Libertarian Party (big L not small l) are usually a hair more to the right on the economic freedom axis than Republicans (and just two or three hairs more than the Dems) but also favor waaaay more social freedom than both even though they barely pass the median.
Greens are actually the most left (about halfway from the center to the extreme) and the most libertarian (again, about halfway from the center to the extreme) of the political parties in the US... about the same location as Noam Chomsky.
Democracy does NOT guarantee liberty. Hitler was democratically elected, as were many other authoritarian leaders both past and present, including Donnie Dimwit.
Pure anarchism would be the most libertarian ideology, but for reasons of biology would never happen.
I hope that helped.
I've never heard Chomsky call himself a libertarian. I am half skeptical of that although he may be operating under a special definition. I have heard him call himself an anarchist which makes sense, as a good anarchist should regularly challenge all authority and if they are not necessary, they need to be eradicated. Also I can't seem to log in if I'm slow to respond. |
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Post by Prometheus on Jul 21, 2021 23:48:24 GMT
Noam Chomsky would be disheartened by your opinion of libertarianism as he considered himself to be a libertarian.
Authoritarian and libertarian are a different axis from "left/right"
Left vs right wing politics has traditionally been about economic freedom (as the video correctly stated). Think of it as the x axis.
Authoritarian vs libertarian concerns itself with social freedom. It's the y axis.
One can be libertarian right or libertarian left; authoritarian left or authoritarian right. Trump, Biden, and Hillary are ALL authoritarian RIGHT with Hillary being the closest to the median on social issues but not by much. Even Bernie is barely left of center economically but dead center between authoritarian and libertarian.
Presidential candidates from the Libertarian Party (big L not small l) are usually a hair more to the right on the economic freedom axis than Republicans (and just two or three hairs more than the Dems) but also favor waaaay more social freedom than both even though they barely pass the median.
Greens are actually the most left (about halfway from the center to the extreme) and the most libertarian (again, about halfway from the center to the extreme) of the political parties in the US... about the same location as Noam Chomsky.
Democracy does NOT guarantee liberty. Hitler was democratically elected, as were many other authoritarian leaders both past and present, including Donnie Dimwit.
Pure anarchism would be the most libertarian ideology, but for reasons of biology would never happen.
I hope that helped.
I've never heard Chomsky call himself a libertarian. I am half skeptical of that although he may be operating under a special definition. I have heard him call himself an anarchist which makes sense, as a good anarchist should regularly challenge all authority and if they are not necessary, they need to be eradicated. Also I can't seem to log in if I'm slow to respond. "Chomsky is often described as one of the best-known figures of the American Left, although he doesn't agree with the usage of the term. He has described himself as a "fellow traveller" to the anarchist tradition, and refers to himself as a libertarian socialist, a political philosophy he summarizes as challenging all forms of authority and attempting to eliminate them if they are unjustified for which the burden of proof is solely upon those who attempt to exert power. He identifies with the labor-oriented anarcho-syndicalist current of anarchism in particular cases, and is a member of the Industrial Workers of the World. He also exhibits some favor for the libertarian socialist vision of participatory economics,[2] himself being a member of the Interim Committee for the International Organization for a Participatory Society.[3]"
Let me switch to Admin mode and see if there's any problem with your account....
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Post by Admin on Jul 21, 2021 23:53:00 GMT
Noam Chomsky would be disheartened by your opinion of libertarianism as he considered himself to be a libertarian. Authoritarian and libertarian are a different axis from "left/right" Left vs right wing politics has traditionally been about economic freedom (as the video correctly stated). Think of it as the x axis. Authoritarian vs libertarian concerns itself with social freedom. It's the y axis. One can be libertarian right or libertarian left; authoritarian left or authoritarian right. Trump, Biden, and Hillary are ALL authoritarian RIGHT with Hillary being the closest to the median on social issues but not by much. Even Bernie is barely left of center economically but dead center between authoritarian and libertarian.
Presidential candidates from the Libertarian Party (big L not small l) are usually a hair more to the right on the economic freedom axis than Republicans (and just two or three hairs more than the Dems) but also favor waaaay more social freedom than both even though they barely pass the median.
Greens are actually the most left (about halfway from the center to the extreme) and the most libertarian (again, about halfway from the center to the extreme) of the political parties in the US... about the same location as Noam Chomsky.
Democracy does NOT guarantee liberty. Hitler was democratically elected, as were many other authoritarian leaders both past and present, including Donnie Dimwit. Pure anarchism would be the most libertarian ideology, but for reasons of biology would never happen. I hope that helped.
I've never heard Chomsky call himself a libertarian. I am half skeptical of that although he may be operating under a special definition. I have heard him call himself an anarchist which makes sense, as a good anarchist should regularly challenge all authority and if they are not necessary, they need to be eradicated. Also I can't seem to log in if I'm slow to respond. I'm not seeing anything wrong with your account. Is there any specific error message? |
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Post by permutojoe1 on Jul 23, 2021 0:59:04 GMT
After mulling it over, I have seen your x and y axis model before and I really don't care for it, mostly because of the idea of economic freedom. The minute you have too much economic freedom in a capitalist economy, for example, the winners of capitalism, i.e. the big corporations, are the decision makers on all the important economic issues like how much folks get paid, benefits, job security, etc. There's soon no longer any economic freedom because of biology, as you put it. Economic freedom is basically a vacuum that will quickly spur on however many ambitious people to seize the reigns of power.
Another reason I don't like it is because politics, at its heart, is the control and distribution of wealth and power. That being the case, social issues pale in comparison to economic ones. My idea model for defining government and politicians is very simple. Do you want absurd wealth disparities or do you want a more even distribution of wealth and power? It's a sliding scale of course but 90-some odd % of all societies in human history have had the former, and by my model, are in the same category.
And finally, I may post more about Democracy later, but of course Democracy does not guarantee liberty. It all goes to shit eventually, but you can prolong it by doing it right, i.e., with a well informed populace that does its job and votes in every election.
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Post by permutojoe1 on Jul 23, 2021 1:04:56 GMT
I've never heard Chomsky call himself a libertarian. I am half skeptical of that although he may be operating under a special definition. I have heard him call himself an anarchist which makes sense, as a good anarchist should regularly challenge all authority and if they are not necessary, they need to be eradicated. Also I can't seem to log in if I'm slow to respond. I'm not seeing anything wrong with your account. Is there any specific error message? When I try to log in I get a message about how my auto-saved account is already linked to something else, or something. It may just be a log-in credentials issue on my side. |
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Post by Prometheus on Jul 23, 2021 3:44:19 GMT
After mulling it over, I have seen your x and y axis model before and I really don't care for it, mostly because of the idea of economic freedom. The minute you have too much economic freedom in a capitalist economy, for example, the winners of capitalism, i.e. the big corporations, are the decision makers on all the important economic issues like how much folks get paid, benefits, job security, etc. There's soon no longer any economic freedom because of biology, as you put it. Economic freedom is basically a vacuum that will quickly spur on however many ambitious people to seize the reigns of power. Another reason I don't like it is because politics, at its heart, is the control and distribution of wealth and power. That being the case, social issues pale in comparison to economic ones. My idea model for defining government and politicians is very simple. Do you want absurd wealth disparities or do you want a more even distribution of wealth and power? It's a sliding scale of course but 90-some odd % of all societies in human history have had the former, and by my model, are in the same category. And finally, I may post more about Democracy later, but of course Democracy does not guarantee liberty. It all goes to shit eventually, but you can prolong it by doing it right, i.e., with a well informed populace that does its job and votes in every election. I get your point, but the concept of "economic freedom" on the axis is really just about how much control the government has over... "the means of production" for want of a better term. How that freedom may be used or misused is certainly a matter for debate and is referenced on the axis by moving further and further to the left the more you prefer government control over the economy.
It's essentially the same for the other axis.
There are plenty of other models out there, as the video indicated. I'm just pointing out (in the simplest terms) that social issues and economic issues are not intrinsically linked.
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Post by Prometheus on Jul 23, 2021 3:46:59 GMT
I'm not seeing anything wrong with your account. Is there any specific error message? When I try to log in I get a message about how my auto-saved account is already linked to something else, or something. It may just be a log-in credentials issue on my side. Do you have different IDs (even if they are the same username) linked to two different email addresses?
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Post by permutojoe on Jul 24, 2021 14:29:08 GMT
When I try to log in I get a message about how my auto-saved account is already linked to something else, or something. It may just be a log-in credentials issue on my side. Do you have different IDs (even if they are the same username) linked to two different email addresses?
I had two autofills on the login page, one with an email and one with just a non-email name. Neither worked before but the email one now logs in, so looks like I'm good. |
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Post by Prometheus on Jul 24, 2021 16:53:19 GMT
Do you have different IDs (even if they are the same username) linked to two different email addresses?
I had two autofills on the login page, one with an email and one with just a non-email name. Neither worked before but the email one now logs in, so looks like I'm good. |
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Post by mrright on Jul 30, 2021 14:30:41 GMT
whenever you give into a lib...they just demand more. screw them
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Post by Prometheus on Jul 30, 2021 17:42:38 GMT
whenever you give into a lib...they just demand more. screw them If Scarlet Johansen (sp?) wanted me to give in to her... I would. |
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![[giveup]](http://storage.proboards.com/7182076/images/FSYefibmKqtatIXMgHZg.gif)
![[cheers]](http://storage.proboards.com/7182076/images/engyBVslEdpmpmdnBwZQ.gif)
Jun 1, 2022 23:27:03 GMT
Jun 1, 2022 23:27:03 GMT