Modern American Socialism... ummmm... progressivism

[abbey1227]

Jun 15, 2021 2:57:06 GMT permutojoe said:

Jun 15, 2021 2:24:32 GMT abbey1227 said:

Can you break that down for me? What specifically does Govt do, that others won't do? Things that are necessities versus luxuries, would be nice.

And do they do them well?

I didn't say govt does what it needs to, just that you can look outside and see what it should do.  Let's start with an easy one.  Keep the banks from fucking over lots of Americans again and again, and again, and again...

Just that as an example? Are Americans not able to do business with a Credit Union instead? or avoid both altogether?

Why are you upset about the banks F'ing people over.......but not the Govt? again and again and again and again......

[merh]

Jun 14, 2021 23:09:29 GMT abbey1227 said:

Jun 14, 2021 19:16:23 GMT merh said:

World English Bible
Give therefore to everyone what you owe: taxes to whom taxes are due; customs to whom customs; respect to whom respect; honor to whom honor.

Holy Shit! MERH!!  

Now why do you think we have packed court rooms? Because people disagree all the time on what they owe each other.

I post memes like that for funny's sake. I'm not entirely unrealistic or insane. There is a small amount of Govt that is necessary and required. My opinions on how much likely greatly differs from your opinion.

Too bad we can't make it more of an A la Carte arrangement, huh?

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's 

[abbey1227]

Jun 15, 2021 3:09:28 GMT merh said:

Jun 14, 2021 23:09:29 GMT abbey1227 said:

Holy Shit! MERH!!  

Now why do you think we have packed court rooms? Because people disagree all the time on what they owe each other.

I post memes like that for funny's sake. I'm not entirely unrealistic or insane. There is a small amount of Govt that is necessary and required. My opinions on how much likely greatly differs from your opinion.

Too bad we can't make it more of an A la Carte arrangement, huh?

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's 

Can someone with a History background let us know what Rome required?  I'm guessing it was about 10% or less

Sorta like that tithing tradition

[merh]

Jun 15, 2021 2:24:32 GMT abbey1227 said:

Jun 14, 2021 23:30:51 GMT permutojoe said:

If only that were so.  The godfater of capitalism, Adam Smith, said himself that you need govt to do what no one else can or will do.  Which if you haven't looked out your window lately, is a whole hell of a lot.

Can you break that down for me? What specifically does Govt do, that others won't do? Things that are necessities versus luxuries, would be nice.

And do they do them well?

Considering the flaws with private companies running prisons, one suspects the government should take that back.

My cousins got a lot of government services as disabled children. Medical coverage, etc.

[merh]

Jun 15, 2021 3:13:20 GMT abbey1227 said:

Jun 15, 2021 3:09:28 GMT merh said:

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's 

Can someone with a History background let us know what Rome required?  I'm guessing it was about 10% or less

Sorta like that tithing tradition

Ancient Taxes from Around the World

History of Taxes
July 10 2017 • Author: Jacob Dayan
There are few things in this world that are, without debate, a necessary evil. Taxes fall all too well within that description. This “necessary evil” has been around for nearly as long as human civilization. By definition, taxes are an obligatory financial charge or duty imposed upon a taxpayer by a state or ruling body in order to fund various public expenditures. The taxes you pay and the taxes your ancestors paid thousands of years ago are used by the government to invest in technology and education. Taxation has held many forms throughout history. Before the existence of a monetary system, taxes were paid as a percentage of crops harvested. This societal requirement dates back to as early as 6,000 B.C. and was first transcribed in clay tablets in the ancient city-state of Lagash in modern day Iraq. Other accounts of early tax implementation were found in Mesopotamia 4,500 years ago where payment took the form of livestock. Here’s a quick look at three major ancient civilizations that imposed taxes as a means of supporting its people:

Egypt
In ancient Egypt, pharaohs were viewed as gods and were tasked with ensuring the safety and health of the people. Egyptians did not have a monetary system and instead taxes were levied on property and harvest. The Pharaoh relied on the surplus goods received as taxes during times of drought, famine, and war. Manual labor was also a form of tax that supported the Egyptian army and building projects. Documentation suggests that Pharaohs appeared before the people in order to collect taxes. Viziers kept records of taxes collected and ensured that requirements were met.
Cooking oil was taxed heavily in Egypt, furthermore people had to buy their taxed cooking oil from the Pharaoh’s monopoly, and were prohibited from reusing previously purchased oil.

Greece
Ancient Greece was comprised of numerous city-states, essentially independent states and its surrounding territories. These city states each had their own collection of tribes, clans, and families which were referred to as kinship groups. The early form of taxation in Greece required these kinship groups to provide food, materials, and manpower to wage war and maintain religious monuments. In 500 B.C. coinage was implemented, which brought a huge economic change as well as the growth of trade and commerce. These Greek city-states raised revenue from numerous sources – some owned mines while others profited from conquering other states. Taxation was the most dependable way for Greek city-states to raise money.
The Greeks believed that a wealthy citizen was ethically obligated to contribute back to his city because the city and its laborers allowed the man to achieve those riches. The honor associated with giving back to your city was so great that there was an ongoing competition between the wealthiest of citizens in Athens.

Rome
The Roman tax system changed many times over the years, and varied quite a bit from region to region. Once the Romans conquered Egypt, they adopted the currently-existing taxation system. The government collected taxes on people, livestock, land, oil, olives, wine, beer, fish, and more. Nearly every business exchange was taxed. The most prominent tax in ancient Rome was the tributun, which was a tax on material wealth. Citizens of Rome did not need to pay this tax, aside from times of financial need, while all noncitizens living in the Roman territory were required to pay tributun on all their property.
It was fairly common for slave owners to free their slaves after a certain number of years and/or payment in Ancient Rome. Many slaves were ultimately able to pay the fee because they were able to work in several places, allowing them to earn the money used to obtain their freedom. Strangely enough, the Roman government required the newly freed slave to pay a tax on his or her own freedom.

Ancient taxes Rome

Imagine that.

They did tax stuff back then as well.

[abbey1227]

Jun 15, 2021 4:13:24 GMT merh said:

Jun 15, 2021 2:24:32 GMT abbey1227 said:

Can you break that down for me? What specifically does Govt do, that others won't do? Things that are necessities versus luxuries, would be nice.

And do they do them well?

Considering the flaws with private companies running prisons, one suspects the government should take that back.

My cousins got a lot of government services as disabled children. Medical coverage, etc.

Were and Are Govt run prisons that much better?

So the tax payers financially adopted your cousins.

[abbey1227]

Jun 15, 2021 4:30:59 GMT merh said:

Ancient taxes Rome

Imagine that.

They did tax stuff back then as well.

Are you reading/hearing something different than what I say? I acknowledged that Rome collected taxes. Taxes are a necessary thing.

The argument is strictly about HOW MUCH people should be expected to pay.

Maybe the US should adopt that Roman method of only charging non-citizens? Then we'd all be ALL FOR Illegals, right?

[permutojoe]

Jun 15, 2021 3:04:53 GMT abbey1227 said:

Jun 15, 2021 2:57:06 GMT permutojoe said:

I didn't say govt does what it needs to, just that you can look outside and see what it should do.  Let's start with an easy one.  Keep the banks from fucking over lots of Americans again and again, and again, and again...

Just that as an example? Are Americans not able to do business with a Credit Union instead? or avoid both altogether?

Why are you upset about the banks F'ing people over.......but not the Govt? again and again and again and again......

Banks love to ram folks, lots of them, where the sun don't shine.  Needs to be put a stop to and no one can or will do that except govt.  You can't seriously think the answer is to just sit there like some sort of wise old sage and say that millions and millions of people could have avoided it therefore it's okay.  Fix the actual problem!

As for government, I agree, it's corrupt as all get out, which leads to a bit of a conundrum.  But again the answer can't be to just abandon rather than fix the problem.

[abbey1227]

Jun 15, 2021 11:22:02 GMT permutojoe said:

Banks love to ram folks, lots of them, where the sun don't shine.  Needs to be put a stop to and no one can or will do that except govt.  You can't seriously think the answer is to just sit there like some sort of wise old sage and say that millions and millions of people could have avoided it therefore it's okay.  Fix the actual problem!

As for government, I agree, it's corrupt as all get out, which leads to a bit of a conundrum.  But again the answer can't be to just abandon rather than fix the problem.

OK...... I guess I just don't like the implication that the entire industry is 'predatory' when thre are literally hundreds of options to choose from.......or just don't use them at all.

I've also got no problem with the Govt acting as an unbiased Referee and regulating a limit on practices and Interest Rates, etc.......... but what do you think that should be?

The Govt isn't exactly a great example of an entity that limits itself? or it's wasteful spending? And to suggest that anyone should pay +35% or more in taxes?

It's not a matter of abandon, imo.......... it's that there is a lot of competition for YOUR business and banks compete against one another.

IF you and your friends could make a healthy profit and offer loans at at few percentage points less to people, then go ahead and set up a loaning institution......IF the Govt will let you, of course.

[merh]

Jun 15, 2021 11:38:46 GMT abbey1227 said:

Jun 15, 2021 11:22:02 GMT permutojoe said:

Banks love to ram folks, lots of them, where the sun don't shine.  Needs to be put a stop to and no one can or will do that except govt.  You can't seriously think the answer is to just sit there like some sort of wise old sage and say that millions and millions of people could have avoided it therefore it's okay.  Fix the actual problem!

As for government, I agree, it's corrupt as all get out, which leads to a bit of a conundrum.  But again the answer can't be to just abandon rather than fix the problem.

OK...... I guess I just don't like the implication that the entire industry is 'predatory' when thre are literally hundreds of options to choose from.......or just don't use them at all.

I've also got no problem with the Govt acting as an unbiased Referee and regulating a limit on practices and Interest Rates, etc.......... but what do you think that should be?

The Govt isn't exactly a great example of an entity that limits itself? or it's wasteful spending? And to suggest that anyone should pay +35% or more in taxes?

It's not a matter of abandon, imo.......... it's that there is a lot of competition for YOUR business and banks compete against one another.

IF you and your friends could make a healthy profit and offer loans at at few percentage points less to people, then go ahead and set up a loaning institution......IF the Govt will let you, of course.

The government collected taxes on people, livestock, land, oil, olives, wine, beer, fish, and more. Nearly every business exchange was taxed. The most prominent tax in ancient Rome was the tributun, which was a tax on material wealth. Citizens of Rome did not need to pay this tax, aside from times of financial need, while all noncitizens living in the Roman territory were required to pay tributun on all their property.

So they did tax citizens.

Every business was taxed so no G.E. not paying a dime.

Who is paying 35%?

Our wonky system, one pays at each level.

SINGLE-Head-H/MARRIED/JOINTLY/MARRIED- SEPARATELY
10%- $0 to $9,875 -$0 to $14,100 -$0 to $19,750 -$0 to $9,875
12%- $9,876 to $40,125- $14,101 to $53,700- $19,751 to $80,250 -$9,876 to $40,125
22% -$40,126 to $85,525 -$53,701 to $85,500 -$80,251 to $171,050 -$40,126 to $85,525
24% -$85,526 to $163,300 -$85,501 to $163,300- $171,051 to $326,600 -$85,526 to $163,300
32% -$163,301 to $207,350 - $163,301 to $207,350 - $326,601 to $414,700 - $163,301 to $207,350
35%-$207,351 to $518,400 - $207,351 to $518,400 - $414,701 to $622,050 - $207,351 to $311,025
37%-$518,401+  - $518,401+ - $622,051+ -  $311,026+

So EVERYONE is taxed at 10% up to $9875 or $19750
THEN whatever is made after that is taxed at 12% up to $40000 or 80000. 
Etc.

Not to mention, personal exemptions/standard deductions/itemized deductions reduce one's income. 

[permutojoe]

Jun 15, 2021 11:38:46 GMT abbey1227 said:

Jun 15, 2021 11:22:02 GMT permutojoe said:

Banks love to ram folks, lots of them, where the sun don't shine.  Needs to be put a stop to and no one can or will do that except govt.  You can't seriously think the answer is to just sit there like some sort of wise old sage and say that millions and millions of people could have avoided it therefore it's okay.  Fix the actual problem!

As for government, I agree, it's corrupt as all get out, which leads to a bit of a conundrum.  But again the answer can't be to just abandon rather than fix the problem.

OK...... I guess I just don't like the implication that the entire industry is 'predatory' when thre are literally hundreds of options to choose from.......or just don't use them at all.

I've also got no problem with the Govt acting as an unbiased Referee and regulating a limit on practices and Interest Rates, etc.......... but what do you think that should be?

The Govt isn't exactly a great example of an entity that limits itself? or it's wasteful spending? And to suggest that anyone should pay +35% or more in taxes?

It's not a matter of abandon, imo.......... it's that there is a lot of competition for YOUR business and banks compete against one another.

IF you and your friends could make a healthy profit and offer loans at at few percentage points less to people, then go ahead and set up a loaning institution......IF the Govt will let you, of course.

That's not the point.  Imagine the gas station industry in your local area.  Let's say 3 GS's have an unusually high rate of people slipping and getting hurt.  Do you a) make the floors safer, b) put up signs to let people know to be careful, or c) just blame the folks who fell and do nothing.  I already know you're going to pick C btw but maybe you'll see what I'm getting at anyway. 

[abbey1227]

Jun 15, 2021 18:12:29 GMT merh said:

Jun 15, 2021 11:38:46 GMT abbey1227 said:

OK...... I guess I just don't like the implication that the entire industry is 'predatory' when thre are literally hundreds of options to choose from.......or just don't use them at all.

I've also got no problem with the Govt acting as an unbiased Referee and regulating a limit on practices and Interest Rates, etc.......... but what do you think that should be?

The Govt isn't exactly a great example of an entity that limits itself? or it's wasteful spending? And to suggest that anyone should pay +35% or more in taxes?

It's not a matter of abandon, imo.......... it's that there is a lot of competition for YOUR business and banks compete against one another.

IF you and your friends could make a healthy profit and offer loans at at few percentage points less to people, then go ahead and set up a loaning institution......IF the Govt will let you, of course.

The government collected taxes on people, livestock, land, oil, olives, wine, beer, fish, and more. Nearly every business exchange was taxed. The most prominent tax in ancient Rome was the tributun, which was a tax on material wealth. Citizens of Rome did not need to pay this tax, aside from times of financial need, while all noncitizens living in the Roman territory were required to pay tributun on all their property.

So they did tax citizens.

Every business was taxed so no G.E. not paying a dime.

Who is paying 35%?

Our wonky system, one pays at each level.

SINGLE-Head-H/MARRIED/JOINTLY/MARRIED- SEPARATELY
10%- $0 to $9,875 -$0 to $14,100 -$0 to $19,750 -$0 to $9,875
12%- $9,876 to $40,125- $14,101 to $53,700- $19,751 to $80,250 -$9,876 to $40,125
22% -$40,126 to $85,525 -$53,701 to $85,500 -$80,251 to $171,050 -$40,126 to $85,525
24% -$85,526 to $163,300 -$85,501 to $163,300- $171,051 to $326,600 -$85,526 to $163,300
32% -$163,301 to $207,350 - $163,301 to $207,350 - $326,601 to $414,700 - $163,301 to $207,350
35%-$207,351 to $518,400 - $207,351 to $518,400 - $414,701 to $622,050 - $207,351 to $311,025
37%-$518,401+  - $518,401+ - $622,051+ -  $311,026+

So EVERYONE is taxed at 10% up to $9875 or $19750
THEN whatever is made after that is taxed at 12% up to $40000 or 80000. 
Etc.

Not to mention, personal exemptions/standard deductions/itemized deductions reduce one's income.

You're completely ignoring the Net Loss that many, if not most, Americans are as tax payers. That's without even mentioning the Illegals.....our own people are bad enough drains.

[abbey1227]

Jun 15, 2021 23:13:13 GMT permutojoe said:

Jun 15, 2021 11:38:46 GMT abbey1227 said:

That's not the point.  Imagine the gas station industry in your local area.  Let's say 3 GS's have an unusually high rate of people slipping and getting hurt.  Do you a) make the floors safer, b) put up signs to let people know to be careful, or c) just blame the folks who fell and do nothing.  I already know you're going to pick C btw but maybe you'll see what I'm getting at anyway. 

Who determines that rate? Slip & Fall Lawyers?

I happen to live in an area of harsh Winters........yet lawyers have insisted that nobody should ever expect to slip or fall on ice or snow? This goes too far, imo.

There's gotta be a happy median between a) b) and c). If there's something seriously wrong with the floor surface, I'd get it fixed. If it's simply a matter of people not bothering to wipe their wet shoes upon entering a tiled area.....then how much more effort than an entry rug should be provided?

If every new rule and safety requirement you can think of simply adds to the cost, burden and liability of the business owner.......then pretty soon, the consumers are left with hardly any options. Then you'll be back to griping about choice and price gouging again.

[merh]

Jun 16, 2021 3:03:23 GMT abbey1227 said:

Jun 15, 2021 18:12:29 GMT merh said:

So they did tax citizens.

Every business was taxed so no G.E. not paying a dime.

Who is paying 35%?

Our wonky system, one pays at each level.

SINGLE-Head-H/MARRIED/JOINTLY/MARRIED- SEPARATELY
10%- $0 to $9,875 -$0 to $14,100 -$0 to $19,750 -$0 to $9,875
12%- $9,876 to $40,125- $14,101 to $53,700- $19,751 to $80,250 -$9,876 to $40,125
22% -$40,126 to $85,525 -$53,701 to $85,500 -$80,251 to $171,050 -$40,126 to $85,525
24% -$85,526 to $163,300 -$85,501 to $163,300- $171,051 to $326,600 -$85,526 to $163,300
32% -$163,301 to $207,350 - $163,301 to $207,350 - $326,601 to $414,700 - $163,301 to $207,350
35%-$207,351 to $518,400 - $207,351 to $518,400 - $414,701 to $622,050 - $207,351 to $311,025
37%-$518,401+  - $518,401+ - $622,051+ -  $311,026+

So EVERYONE is taxed at 10% up to $9875 or $19750
THEN whatever is made after that is taxed at 12% up to $40000 or 80000. 
Etc.

Not to mention, personal exemptions/standard deductions/itemized deductions reduce one's income.

You're completely ignoring the Net Loss that many, if not most, Americans are as tax payers. That's without even mentioning the Illegals.....our own people are bad enough drains.

finance.yahoo.com/news/immigrants-health-care-america-142433323.html

Immigrants are actually 'subsidizing some of the costs' for all Americans' health care
Adriana Belmonte
May 25, 2021·
Despite rhetoric that immigrants are a drain on taxpayers, new research indicates that immigrants have actually been helping to pay for health care for all Americans.

Two reports from the New American Economy, a bipartisan immigration research and advocacy organization, analyzed the amounts that immigrants — that is, residents and citizens who were born outside of the U.S. — paid into Medicare and private insurance premiums.

The researchers found that between 1996 and 2011, immigrants contributed $182.4 billion more to the Medicare Trust Fund than what the Fund spent on their health care. And between 2008 and 2014, immigrants contributed $174.4 billion more in health insurance premiums than was spent on them.

“Both of these briefs really counter assumptions and arguments often made or concerns that are raised that immigrants drain U.S. health resources,” Lynsie Ranker, an epidemiologist at the Institute for Community Health and one of the co-authors of the report, told Yahoo Finance. “This emphasizes the important contributions that immigrants make. In the case of private insurance, we’re talking about premium contributions. And in Medicare, we’re talking about the payroll taxes they contribute as working folks.”

And while immigrants require more government assistance than native-born Americans in some areas, the New American Economy research on Medicare and health insurance premium contributions further indicates that immigrants are less of a drain of taxpayer resources than many Americans believe.

The Cato Institute, a right-leaning libertarian think tank, found that the average immigrant as of 2018 “consumed $56 less in [Supplemental Security Income], $610 less in Medicare, and $1,808 less in Social Security retirement benefits than the average native in 2016 — more than compensating for their overconsumption of cash assistance, SNAP, and Medicaid.”

'You can think of immigrants as subsidizing some of the costs'
Medicare, a publicly funded health insurance program for roughly 60 million Americans, is mainly funded by the Hospital Trust Fund, which is generated by payroll taxes.

The findings came as a result of the National American Economy multiplying wage and salary earnings by 2.9% — the rate of payroll taxes that fund Medicare — and adding in taxes from some Social Security income.

The program is mostly for people aged 65 or older, and most immigrants are on the younger side, which is part of the reason why they don’t cost the program as much as U.S.-born people.

Immigrants contribute more to Medicare than is spent on them. (Chart: New American Economy)
Immigrants contribute more to Medicare than is spent on them. (Chart: New American Economy)
“For Medicare, it’s really interesting because it has a lot to do with demographic trends and health trends,” Andrew Lim, director of quantitative research at the New American Economy and a co-author of the briefs, told Yahoo Finance. “In general, immigrants tend to be more working age and less likely to be elderly, who are more likely to be using Medicare. You have more immigrants who are still in the prime of their working ages, and obviously then through their payroll taxes, they’re contributing to the Medicare Trust Fund and they’re less elderly immigrants who are eligible to take out.”

Additionally, he noted, Medicare is also something that’s restricted to people who qualify either as citizens or qualified green card holders who are not yet citizens.

Between 2012 and 2018, the research noted, “immigrants contributed an average of $165.52 more per capita annually to the Medicare Trust Fund than Medicare spent on their behalf. Over the same time period, the U.S.-born cost the Trust Fund an average of $51.46 per capita, as more was spent on their behalf than was contributed.”


And in that same time span, immigrants paid $51 billion more in Medicare-related taxes than they used in Medicare-paid services. Within that group, non-citizen immigrants contributed even more at $75 billion than was spent on them. Concurrently, U.S.-born persons used $98 billion more than they contributed for the same taxes.

“In that respect, you can think of immigrants as subsidizing some of the costs or expenditures that are going out and going out disproportionately to U.S.-born people,” Lim said.

Additionally, the researchers theorize that the contributions from immigrants have been able to delay Medicare's insolvency, though that could still happen as soon as 2024.

“In light of current predictions about the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on the solvency of the trust fund, these subsidies are likely to be even more critical in the future,” they wrote. “Recent efforts to reduce the flow of immigrants is likely to threaten the solvency of the HITF and jeopardize healthcare for the 60 million Americans who rely on it. These findings suggest that efforts to stabilize the program’s finances should include immigration reform efforts that encourage the flow of immigrant workers into the United States.”

'It really matters what happens ... to immigration in the future'
It’s a similar story in terms of private insurance.

The National American Economy calculated this by factoring in the 2012-2018 Medical Expenditure Panel Surveys from the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality and the 2013-2019 Current Population Survey from the U.S. Census Bureau and Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Immigrants contribute a significant amount more in premiums than they receive in benefits. (Chart: New American Economy)
Immigrants contribute a significant amount more in premiums than they receive in benefits. (Chart: New American Economy)
Each immigrant with private insurance between 2012 and 2018 contributed an average of $1,182 more in premiums than their insurer spent on them. Meanwhile, U.S.-born persons saw an average deficit of $155 per capita.

Ranker reiterated that the average age of immigrants plays a significant role in this, but that there are also other factors at play.

“We also need to think about barriers to accessing care in terms of issues around language-based services for people in which English isn’t their first language,” she said. “That might keep people from seeking care as well. But I think in terms of private insurance, what’s really driving the low expenditures among immigrants is their lower average age compared to U.S.-born persons.”

Maria Niece speaks to clinic site worker Dario Camacho, asking if she can come back as a companion to be vaccinated with the man she takes care of, at La Colaborativa in Chelsea, Massachusetts on February 16, 2021. - Chelsea, with a population of close to 40,000 people, is one of the hardest hit cities in the United States by Covid-19 with close to 8,000 infected people and over 200 deaths from the virus. The community is made up of close to 70 percent Latino or Hispanic people and also retains a large undocumented population. East Boston Neighborhood Health Center is working with La Colaborativa to vaccinate any person in the community that wants to be vaccinated and is working to get the message out in multiple languages. Signs are outside the building in Spanish and English. La Colaborativa is all ready an established institution in the community for helping and empowering immigrants in the city. 
Health status is another contributor — according to Lim, immigrants tend to have lower levels of chronic conditions like obesity and diabetes, which can cause health care costs to build up significantly, especially as one ages.

“Given what we know about immigrants … and if things stay the same – you would imagine that the trends would stay the same – it really matters what happens in terms of health care policy in the future, but also what happens to immigration in the future,” Lim said. “If, for example, the United States was to suddenly restrict immigration, the immigrants we have today would just get older, but there would be no other immigrants to replenish them or stay in the workforce.”

Eventually, he continued, “you would see these numbers change because you can’t make more immigrants if you don’t let them come in. You can just make more people by having them being born here. That’s the thing that’s kind of the big question mark.”

[abbey1227]

Jun 16, 2021 5:43:49 GMT merh said:

Jun 16, 2021 3:03:23 GMT abbey1227 said:

You're completely ignoring the Net Loss that many, if not most, Americans are as tax payers. That's without even mentioning the Illegals.....our own people are bad enough drains.

finance.yahoo.com/news/immigrants-health-care-america-142433323.html

Immigrants are actually 'subsidizing some of the costs' for all Americans' health care

Two reports from the New American Economy, a bipartisan immigration research and advocacy organization, analyzed the amounts that immigrants — that is, residents and

mmmm-kay

[abbey1227]

[merh]

Jun 16, 2021 8:59:16 GMT abbey1227 said:

1. You mean like the rich not paying taxes? 
Or farmers paid not to plant various crops?



2. You seem to feel endlessly put upon.
V2 has more than a few white dudes who feel victimized.

5-so you decide what people can or cannot have?

[abbey1227]

Jun 16, 2021 9:12:56 GMT merh said:

Jun 16, 2021 8:59:16 GMT abbey1227 said:

1. You mean like the rich not paying taxes? 
Or farmers paid not to plant various crops?


2. You seem to feel endlessly put upon.
V2 has more than a few white dudes who feel victimized.

5-so you decide what people can or cannot have?

of course..........ALL of the subsidies!

Farmers included. That's the game they've conned everyone into participating in.

Not me personally.......remember, poor......so my amount of taxes isn't all that much.

V2 has plenty of blacks, browns, yellows reds and whites that feel like victims. I just happen to be a pale blue.

Oh, IF ONLY, huh?    You'd all be living pretty spartan lifestyles.   

[permutojoe]

Jun 16, 2021 3:12:22 GMT abbey1227 said:

Jun 15, 2021 23:13:13 GMT permutojoe said:

That's not the point.  Imagine the gas station industry in your local area.  Let's say 3 GS's have an unusually high rate of people slipping and getting hurt.  Do you a) make the floors safer, b) put up signs to let people know to be careful, or c) just blame the folks who fell and do nothing.  I already know you're going to pick C btw but maybe you'll see what I'm getting at anyway. 

Who determines that rate? Slip & Fall Lawyers?

I happen to live in an area of harsh Winters........yet lawyers have insisted that nobody should ever expect to slip or fall on ice or snow? This goes too far, imo.

There's gotta be a happy median between a) b) and c). If there's something seriously wrong with the floor surface, I'd get it fixed. If it's simply a matter of people not bothering to wipe their wet shoes upon entering a tiled area.....then how much more effort than an entry rug should be provided?

If every new rule and safety requirement you can think of simply adds to the cost, burden and liability of the business owner.......then pretty soon, the consumers are left with hardly any options. Then you'll be back to griping about choice and price gouging again.

The bell curve determines that rate.  This has been a complete yet impressive dodge on your part.

[abbey1227]

Socialism: You have two cows. Give one cow to your neighbor.

Communism: You have two cows. Give both cows to the government, and they may give you some of the milk.

Fascism: You have two cows. You give all of the milk to the government, and the government sells it.

Nazism: You have two cows. The government shoots you and takes both cows.

Anarchism: You have two cows. Keep both of the cows, shoot the government agent and steal another cow.

Capitalism: You have two cows. Sell one cow and buy a bull.

Surrealism: You have two giraffes. The government makes you take harmonica lessons.