Old Vandalism vs New

[abbey1227]

Sacramento Bee
‘Sacred site’ vandalized with graffiti in Nevada, feds say. 2 men are going to prison
U.S. Department of Justice
Mitchell Willetts   Sun, November 6, 2022 at 12:13 PM

Two men accused of vandalizing a prehistoric and sacred site in the Nevada desert are going to prison, according to federal officials.

The men, both 28-year-olds from Elko, spray-painted graffiti at White River Narrows, a canyon dotted with petroglyphs left by Native Americans, the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Nevada said in a release.

Glyphs at the site are ancient and “provide glimpses into the cultural lives of Native American peoples who lived by harvesting wild plants and animals from some 4,000 years ago until the nineteenth century,” according to the Bureau of Land Management, which investigated the vandalism.

It is a “sacred site” to the Paiute and Shoshone tribes, the release said.

Between September 2019 and October 2019, Jonathan Pavon, who also goes by the name “Cluer,” and Daniel Plata, who goes by “Velor,” sprayed their aliases in bold letters in locations around the site — including a 20-foot-long graffiti on a rock face containing petroglyphs, the release said.

One of the men posed for a photo in front of the handiwork, an image shared by federal officials shows.

In 2022, Pavon pleaded guilty to misdemeanor conspiracy and violating the Archaeological Resources Protection Act. He was sentenced on Nov. 4 to 18 months in prison.

Plata also pleaded guilty to a lesser charge and was sentenced to four months in prison followed by eight months of house arrest.

“No restitution or repair can undo the damage done by those who would vandalize such a sacred and historical site as White River Narrows, but this ruling demonstrates that such crimes will not be met with a slap on the wrist,” U.S. Attorney Jason M. Frierson for the District of Nevada said. “Our Office will continue to work to ensure that anyone who desecrates sacred tribal lands and artifacts are held accountable.”

www.yahoo.com/news/sacred-vandalized-graffiti-nevada-feds-181309947.html

[Prometheus]

Seriously?

You're saying that the petroglyphs are vandalism?

Why?

Oh yeah. "Art" is only made by white people, right?

[merh]

Nov 7, 2022 22:37:55 GMT Prometheus said:

Seriously?

You're saying that the petroglyphs are vandalism?

Why?

Oh yeah. "Art" is only made by white people, right?

He's pissed at some tribes not allowing oil pipelines to be run through tribal lands. 

I dislike graffiti because it is usually this-tagging. People writing on stuff that doesn't belong to them. If the property owner allows it, fine, but if they don't want your name on their fence or wall, you don't put it there.

I'm sure ABBEY wouldn't be happy if this dude painted that on the wall of his home.

It's the "Kilroy was here" mentality.

Even if it weren't sacred tribal land, think people want to see your stupid tag on a landscape they came to view?

[merh]

Of course only white people matter

TIL Joseph Christmas, the first white American to explore the Grand Canyon, thought it worthless to visitors, writing, "The region is valueless. After entering there is nothing to do but leave. Ours has been the first and will doubtless be the last party of whites to visit this profitless locality."

[Prometheus]

Nov 10, 2022 6:25:07 GMT merh said:

Of course only white people matter

TIL Joseph Christmas, the first white American to explore the Grand Canyon, thought it worthless to visitors, writing, "The region is valueless. After entering there is nothing to do but leave. Ours has been the first and will doubtless be the last party of whites to visit this profitless locality."

Until they found out that it was sacred to the Native Americans, then they just had to have it....

[abbey1227]

Nov 10, 2022 6:20:10 GMT merh said:

He's pissed at some tribes not allowing oil pipelines to be run through tribal lands. 

I dislike graffiti because it is usually this-tagging. People writing on stuff that doesn't belong to them. If the property owner allows it, fine, but if they don't want your name on their fence or wall, you don't put it there.

I'm sure ABBEY wouldn't be happy if this dude painted that on the wall of his home.

It's the "Kilroy was here" mentality.

Even if it weren't sacred tribal land, think people want to see your stupid tag on a landscape they came to view?

That's their decision to make........they'll go around if the price is too high.

I'm chuckling because if you think about it........it's the same thing either way. Somebody thought others would want to see their handiwork. What makes the artists from ancient times any better than now? Maybe it's the vandals of today's way of tearing down statues?

I wouldn't be happy with anyone damaging my property.

Where would someone even get the idea/attitude that it was OK to damage property that wasn't theirs?  OH, yeah.........most don't bother buying their own property anymore.

[merh]

Nov 10, 2022 12:39:59 GMT abbey1227 said:

Nov 10, 2022 6:20:10 GMT merh said:

He's pissed at some tribes not allowing oil pipelines to be run through tribal lands. 

I dislike graffiti because it is usually this-tagging. People writing on stuff that doesn't belong to them. If the property owner allows it, fine, but if they don't want your name on their fence or wall, you don't put it there.

I'm sure ABBEY wouldn't be happy if this dude painted that on the wall of his home.

It's the "Kilroy was here" mentality.

Even if it weren't sacred tribal land, think people want to see your stupid tag on a landscape they came to view?

That's their decision to make........they'll go around if the price is too high.

I'm chuckling because if you think about it........it's the same thing either way. Somebody thought others would want to see their handiwork. What makes the artists from ancient times any better than now? Maybe it's the vandals of today's way of tearing down statues?

I wouldn't be happy with anyone damaging my property.

Where would someone even get the idea/attitude that it was OK to damage property that wasn't theirs?  OH, yeah.........most don't bother buying their own property anymore.

Native Americans didn't believe in owning the land, did they? 
Primitive ancestors were hunter/gatherers who moved around so art on the wall was all transitory. It was all something for now or to tell tales to whoever came next.

Kilroy was here is a meme that became popular during World War II, typically seen in graffiti. Its origin is debated, but the phrase and the distinctive accompanying doodle became associated with GIs in the 1940s: a bald-headed man (sometimes depicted as having a few hairs) with a prominent nose peeking over a wall with his fingers clutching the wall.

"Mr Chad" or just "Chad" was the version that became popular in the United Kingdom. The character of Chad may have been derived from a British cartoonist in 1938, possibly pre-dating "Kilroy was here". According to Dave Wilton, "Some time during the war, Chad and Kilroy met, and in the spirit of Allied unity merged, with the British drawing appearing over the American phrase." Other names for the character include Smoe, Clem, Flywheel, Private Snoops, Overby, Eugene the Jeep, Scabooch, and Sapo.

According to Charles Panati, "The outrageousness of the graffiti was not so much what it said, but where it turned up." It is not known if there was an actual person named Kilroy who inspired the graffiti, although there have been claims over the years.

The phrase may have originated through United States servicemen who would draw the picture and the text "Kilroy was here" on the walls and other places where they were stationed, encamped, or visited. An ad in Life magazine noted that WWII-era servicemen were fond of claiming that "whatever beach-head they stormed, they always found notices chalked up ahead of them, that 'Kilroy was here'". Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable notes that it was particularly associated with the Air Transport Command, at least when observed in the United Kingdom. At some point, the graffiti (Chad) and slogan (Kilroy was here) must have merged.

Many sources claim origin as early as 1939. Earlier examples of the phrase dating from 1937 are unverified.

According to one story, German intelligence found the phrase on captured American equipment. This led Adolf Hitler to believe that Kilroy could be the name or codename of a high-level Allied spy. At the time of the Potsdam Conference in 1945, it was rumored that Stalin found "Kilroy was here" written in the VIP bathroom, prompting him to ask his aides who Kilroy was. War photographer Robert Capa noted a use of the phrase at Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge in December 1944: "On the black, charred walls of an abandoned barn, scrawled in white chalk, was the legend of Gen. Anthony McAuliffe's soldiers: KILROY WAS STUCK HERE."

So it's a way for someone to mark their existence,  but it has no place in a modern world where things are owned. 

A Neanderthal drawing on a cave wall had different perspectives on ownership. 

Nowadays Cluer & his ilk don't need to draw on stuff to point the way for those to come. He isn't pointing to water sources or hunting spots.

He's a powerless nobody trying to leave his mark on the world because he doesn't have millions to leave his name on buildings, etc.

[abbey1227]

Nov 13, 2022 12:27:40 GMT merh said:

Native Americans didn't believe in owning the land, did they? 
Primitive ancestors were hunter/gatherers who moved around so art on the wall was all transitory. It was all something for now or to tell tales to whoever came next.

Kilroy was here is a meme that became popular during World War II, typically seen in graffiti. Its origin is debated, but the phrase and the distinctive accompanying doodle became associated with GIs in the 1940s: a bald-headed man (sometimes depicted as having a few hairs) with a prominent nose peeking over a wall with his fingers clutching the wall.

"Mr Chad" or just "Chad" was the version that became popular in the United Kingdom. The character of Chad may have been derived from a British cartoonist in 1938, possibly pre-dating "Kilroy was here". According to Dave Wilton, "Some time during the war, Chad and Kilroy met, and in the spirit of Allied unity merged, with the British drawing appearing over the American phrase." Other names for the character include Smoe, Clem, Flywheel, Private Snoops, Overby, Eugene the Jeep, Scabooch, and Sapo.

According to Charles Panati, "The outrageousness of the graffiti was not so much what it said, but where it turned up." It is not known if there was an actual person named Kilroy who inspired the graffiti, although there have been claims over the years.

The phrase may have originated through United States servicemen who would draw the picture and the text "Kilroy was here" on the walls and other places where they were stationed, encamped, or visited. An ad in Life magazine noted that WWII-era servicemen were fond of claiming that "whatever beach-head they stormed, they always found notices chalked up ahead of them, that 'Kilroy was here'". Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable notes that it was particularly associated with the Air Transport Command, at least when observed in the United Kingdom. At some point, the graffiti (Chad) and slogan (Kilroy was here) must have merged.

Many sources claim origin as early as 1939. Earlier examples of the phrase dating from 1937 are unverified.

According to one story, German intelligence found the phrase on captured American equipment. This led Adolf Hitler to believe that Kilroy could be the name or codename of a high-level Allied spy. At the time of the Potsdam Conference in 1945, it was rumored that Stalin found "Kilroy was here" written in the VIP bathroom, prompting him to ask his aides who Kilroy was. War photographer Robert Capa noted a use of the phrase at Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge in December 1944: "On the black, charred walls of an abandoned barn, scrawled in white chalk, was the legend of Gen. Anthony McAuliffe's soldiers: KILROY WAS STUCK HERE."

So it's a way for someone to mark their existence,  but it has no place in a modern world where things are owned. 

A Neanderthal drawing on a cave wall had different perspectives on ownership. 

Nowadays Cluer & his ilk don't need to draw on stuff to point the way for those to come. He isn't pointing to water sources or hunting spots.

He's a powerless nobody trying to leave his mark on the world because he doesn't have millions to leave his name on buildings, etc.

I think that notion is as childish as George Washington cut down a cherry tree and didn't lie........... they had hundreds of tribes and those tribes had their own territories. They fought wars over them. So they believed in property in the most basic way.

About the only real difference is the population densities of humanoids now vs then.