Abortion With JP

[Prometheus]

Let's skip all the god stuff and let me just talk about what I think he got wrong and right.

I'm sure there are some women out there who feel and say that they are "empowered" by getting an abortion but I also think that even most of them will suffer psychological damage and seek therapy at some point.

Why?

Because they know that they are taking a human life... embryo... fetus... baby... whatever word you want to stick on it doesn't matter. You're killing a human life. I'm OK with that killing, but I'm not going to wrap it up in any "soft language" to make people feel any better about it.

He assigned a term of "a couple of months" - which he admits is arbitrary - in which to make the decision and take the necessary steps. I think that's a little short considering that maybe 2 months can pass between conception and actual realization that one is pregnant. Personally, I'm OK with the current 23 weeks. However, as medical science advances and the chances of successful premature births advances, then we might need to dial that back to 20.

I actually like that he admits that he's looking at this from a "maximum freedom" standpoint and that that standpoint must allow for freedom of choice... even if you might not agree with the choice. That's something that always irks me about the self-serving rightards who espouse "individualism" then think it's OK to eliminate the rights of entire classes of people.

Also, something important that he said sort of upsets the apple cart when it comes to discourse: if we can't define "man" and "woman" then the left needs to accept that all opinions are valid in the discussion... regardless of who they come from. I was usually fairly content to say, "As a man, I don't think I have any say in the matter," but now that this is a thing:

I think that "men" need to be allowed into the conversation.

Or you're free to define "man" and "woman"....

[abbey1227]

Jun 8, 2022 3:38:27 GMT Prometheus said:

Let's skip all the god stuff and let me just talk about what I think he got wrong and right.

I'm sure there are some women out there who feel and say that they are "empowered" by getting an abortion but I also think that even most of them will suffer psychological damage and seek therapy at some point.

Why?

Because they know that they are taking a human life... embryo... fetus... baby... whatever word you want to stick on it doesn't matter. You're killing a human life. I'm OK with that killing, but I'm not going to wrap it up in any "soft language" to make people feel any better about it.

He assigned a term of "a couple of months" - which he admits is arbitrary - in which to make the decision and take the necessary steps. I think that's a little short considering that maybe 2 months can pass between conception and actual realization that one is pregnant. Personally, I'm OK with the current 23 weeks. However, as medical science advances and the chances of successful premature births advances, then we might need to dial that back to 20.

I actually like that he admits that he's looking at this from a "maximum freedom" standpoint and that that standpoint must allow for freedom of choice... even if you might not agree with the choice. That's something that always irks me about the self-serving rightards who espouse "individualism" then think it's OK to eliminate the rights of entire classes of people.

Also, something important that he said sort of upsets the apple cart when it comes to discourse: if we can't define "man" and "woman" then the left needs to accept that all opinions are valid in the discussion... regardless of who they come from. I was usually fairly content to say, "As a man, I don't think I have any say in the matter," but now that this is a thing:

I think that "men" need to be allowed into the conversation.

Or you're free to define "man" and "woman"....

I just had someone give me that "Oh, so you don't have kids....." argument. Which made me chuckle.

I agree some women will undoubtedly have regrets.

I gotta admit, I'm kinda surprised to see you pen that statement........but it's another of those unusual cases where WE see things almost identically. You just have a much better way of putting things softly to people. I've tried to make it clear for years that I do not care about killing a fetus one bit. I actually believe bringing unwanted children into the world is a far worse situation. And little kids suffering is about my only real weak spot left. So I'm glad you fleshed out that whole word choice thing there.

Again, you make almost the same argument I've made. The one glaring thing I know I've changed my mind on was the 20 week mark....... I did not know certain tests couldn't be performed until 20 weeks of development, but once I did..... I went with my belief that it's far more humane to end a pregnancy then, rather than cause all sorts of suffering for multiple people for possibly decades. I wouldn't wanna make that choice for myself..... I don't ever wanna make it for anyone else. And as you pointed out like I have, the medical science is just getting better.......so even that 20-23 weeks may have to be re-examined in the not too distant future. Sadly.

I too felt the inclusion of God in the discussion opens the door for all sorts of other debates about beliefs and morality. I do not have that in my thought process on this subject. I do think maybe JP has had at least one child. And I was surprised to see friends of mine change their opinions on abortion AFTER having children. Maybe it was all the sonograms and deep desires to bring those lives into fruition? I do not know for sure. I just know the abortion argument is still around hot & heavy........when I thought all of the older religious types dying off would make it less of an issue by this point in my life. I do not view humans as 'little droplets of God'.......and I'm very curious how so many following the science have arrived at that opinion?

Excellent and funny point. They do paint themselves into corners with not defining a woman anymore.......and automatically losing the "You're a man, so you should have no say on the matter" argument. As Chappelle joked, "If you can kill them........ I should be able to abandon them." Now I know he's got kids, so I think what his real point there was not the freedom to be an irresponsible absentee dad, but that every fetus had 2 creators involved. So for all this talk of equality and rights......it's yet another one-way street.

[abbey1227]

oh, I almost forgot to add.......... since the ACA implies that children are their parents' responsibility until the age of 26 now....... I say that 28 Week abortion push is falling far short of it's true potential.